The #SpyCopsInquiry is starting again after lunch, at 14:05 - which means it'll be back on Youtube from 14:15 onwards - at
We'll be hearing more about the #spycops infiltration of anti-apartheid campaigners in the 1970s
Hain was asked if his family's phone number was used by other groups, and he confirmed that it was.
They suspected that their telephone was tapped, so were cautious about what they said on the phone. Peter's mother had experienced surveillance in South Africa, so was particularly security-conscious.
[UCPI 00000 34091]
Hain comments in his witness statement about HN298's account of a phone call between him and Hain's mother – 'Mike Scott' claims that she told him to go to a private meeting (at Ernest Rodker's house).
“I find that so unlikely as to be inconceivable” he says
She was “incredibly careful about what was said on the phone”.
The family were under heavy surveillance in South Africa.
Peter had even been followed to school on his bike

Hain is unsure why this undercover is concealing or not telling the truth here.
Barr tried to move on to discuss the Anti Nazi League (ANL) in the late 70s.

Hain interjected to “complete the anti-apartheid point”.
One of the #spycops reports refers to the AAM as a Stalinist organisation, it dates to 1993, which Hain noted was three years after Mandela's release.
If that is the type of thinking of these units, “we have a particular ideology of undercover policing which frankly cannot be defended” said Hain
He went on to mention other cases of obvious police bias.
He had already talked about the bias of the British police in choosing not to investigate the attacks/ bombings etc that took place in London.

Why have they not investigated the murder of journalist Chris Wall?
And what about the bomb sent to Peter himself, at his family home?

Similar bombs killed other anti-apartheid activists across the world, and it is only down to luck that he is alive today.
He has also learnt recently that he was described as a “South African terrorist” by Mark Kennedy, a much later #spycops officer.

Kennedy was part of the NPOIU, and deceived an environmental campaigner, Kate Wilson, into a relationship.
At the time of his report, Hain was a Government Minister.
“What is it in the DNA of undercover policing that allows its officers to get such a biased and completely unrepresentative and libellous statements,about me in this instance but also about others”? asks Hain
Barr dragged things back to the ANL.
This was formed in 1977.
The National Front had overtaken the Liberal Party in the GLC elections of May 1970 and this had caused a great deal of concern against those opposed to fascism and racism.
Hain explained that there was felt a need to tackle the problem, and not just in the way that the 'Battle of Lewisham' had done.
Hain told the Inquiry about the kind of violence that the far-right used. They physically attacked, and sometimes killed, people.
He describes them as “swaggering” through predominantly-black areas threatening and committing violence.
He doesn't understand why the police protected these racist thugs, a group “whose avowed purpose is to stir up and promote racial hatred”.
He notes that such behaviour was criminalised by a later Labour Government (that he served in).
He repeated that the ANL was set up as part of a deliberate strategy to do things differently.
There were local ANL groups – no central membership list – and lots of groups based in specific communities and professions
( Nurses, Skateboarders etc against the Nazis).
The ANL put out leaflets, and campaigned against the NF's electioneering.
They mobilised to stop them openly demonstrating in the street.

He calls it an “innovative campaign” and went on to explain the concern about the far-right influencing youth culture. Especially skinhead culture.
Rock against Racism organised music festivals, so the public could hear anti-racist messages from their favourite bands.
Punk bands were invited to play at Rock against Racism.
There were plenty of skinheads who supported the ANL.
The NF attacked Jewish, Muslim and Black citizens. Whenever they did this, the ANL sought to stand in their way and block this violence.

Again, the ANL was not a secret conspiratorial group. It was open and public.
Barr talked about the existence of anti-fascists who were “not averse to participating in violence”.

Hain recollected an event in Barking in 1978. Some Maoists turned up on a bus and there was some violence that day.
Barr questioned him more about physical resistance being used by anti-fascists.
Hain asks what else they should do when confronted a rise in fascism?
He believes the ANL's actions were and are completely justified.
In Hain's book, he says that the fascist' demos should have been banned in the first place.
Barr says that this caused a “public order challenge” for the police.
Again Hain asks why in this case, the police chose to target the anti-racists rather than the fascist groups?
The police's purpose should have been combatting racism and Nazism and its menacing rise at that time” says Hain
The report says the group (incl him) were “drawing up plans for disruption” and he disagrees with their aims being mischaracterised in this way. They actually wanted the event not to take place at all.
“It's seen through a prism where we are the bad guys, and the racist and Nazis are not” he says.

The NF targeted areas with Black/ Muslim/ Jewish populations for their demos. They attacked mosques and synagogues. I think the police should have been on our side in opposing them” says Hain.
The document makes it clear that the ANL explicitly opposed the use of 'tit for tat' violence, and did promote a wide range of ways of non-violently supporting the victims of racist violence.
Hain is grateful that the Inquiry has included these documents.
Would Hain accept that there is a value in the police collecting certain intelligence?
He says the police could just have spoken to them and found out what their intentions were.
Barr kept asking if there might have been “hot heads” in the crowd that day, or at other ANL demos?
Hain says this comes back to the same theme – why did these undercover officers devote so much time to finding out the obvious?
The Met officers who were liasing with the demo organisers could even have provided them with this information!
The True Spies documentary featured an anecdote about people “sitting on sacks of money” from someone called 'Jeff' (HN21).
Peter remembers that occasion – the money had been collected in donations from people who attended the gig in the park.
The next document [MPS-0742234] concerns a large ANL meeting that took place at the Camden Centre on 11th June 1994.
Attended by 320 delegates from over 200 separate organisations. The practice of voting is weirdly described as “an old SWP practice”.
By then, Hain was an MP.

Is he bothered to learn that his activities were being reported on in this way by #spycops?

"Yes. It's wholly wrong and I suspect close to being illegal."
He referenced the 'Wilson Doctrine', which said that if any MP was put under surveillance, that should be disclosed.

Why is he identified by name here, for attending an open and public event?

Hain admitted that the SWP were heavily involved in the ANL, but said it was far too big an organisation for them to control.

He explained the power of the SWP's printing press – they could get leaflets and posters printed overnight and were very efficient/ effective.
He believes that it was overwhelmingly the Labour Party that benefited (in recruitment terms) from the ANL over the years.
This debate ( entitled 'The crisis and the future of the Left')
was chaired by Hain and featured six speakers from different political backgrounds. (Tariq Ali, the late Tony Benn MP, Tony Cliff, Paul Foot, Stuart Holland MP as well as Hain)
Duncan Hallas, Chris Harman, Audrey Wise MP are also listed as attending
Asked if he is concerned to hear that the SDS was reporting on this event:
"For the life of me I don't know why they were there" responded Hain.

They were obsessed with spying on left-wong events” he says
“It seems to me, the constant targeting of progressive radicals of various descriptions... seems to be the focus of attention rather than the right and far-right...”
This compares with the recent revelations that Greenpace and Extinction Rebellion (XR) have ended up on lists of so-called 'terrorists'
Peter suggests that this is a continuum of the same institutional thinking that led to the #spycops spying on him.
Barr then told Hain that this Inquiry will be hearing about the infiltration of the far-right too. But due to the supposed 'risks' to those #spycops who were deployed against these groups, this evidence may he heard in secret.
After a short break, we started again

Hain wanted to return to the issue of far-right groups.

Was there anything 'disorderly' about the people who were there?

No, this was a parliamentary party type conference.

The Labour Party was Her Majesty's Official Opposition at the time. He remembers attending as a delegate from the Putney branch, and putting his two young sons in the creche there.

Peter has seen that over a thousand groups (the vast majority of these were progressive, left-wing causes) sare known to have been spied on by these #spycops units.

He thinks it is important to put things in perspective. In comparison the Right was barely spied on at all
Hain is described as being in a “very cautious mood”. Clive Soley MP and Ernkie Roberts MP are both mentioned by name in it.
Barr says he would value any impressions about what was said in that meeting, but it seems to have been a very normal political meeting, about the Right to Work march

An offensively inaccurate description of him appeared in another, much later, #spycops report that Hain has now seen:
“Katja's father is a good friend of a South African who was an activist terrorist who now works at the UK Home Office”
As he said earlier, he is concerned that this report (dated 18th November 2003) went unchecked by Mark Kennedy's #spycops managers.
Katja (Kate Wilson) actually went to school with his sons.
The SA security services were engaged in waging error on all opposition, including Hain's parents, the Mandelas, and everyone else who stood up to the regime.
They were carrying out illegal bombings and arson attacks, and sending letter bombs, as we've heard a few times today.
Asked if he had any concerns about how long these files are retained, Hain said that he did.
He says the Director General of MI5 came to him in July 2000 and said the security service files on him had been destroyed.
It is obvious that they have not, as these were retrieved from somewhere.

He became a Minister in 1997, and would have been security-vetted at this time, before being privy to sensitive intelligence.
Hain believes that there is legitimate undercover policing as well as illegitimate undercover policing. He knows that some officers have done important anti-terrorist work, for example.

However he would like to see proper boundaries drawn for undercover operations.
Speaking about (family friend) Kate Wilson again, he says : you may or may not agree with her activism, but there is no justification for Mark Kennedy entering into an intimate relationship with her, or other women.
He pointed out that if the police adopt an approach of spying on everyone in the hope that this throws up useful intelligence, that leads to eg spying on the entire Muslim community “in the hope that you might catch a Jihadi” which is not acceptable (or effective)
Peter believes that the #spycops “all went wrong from the beginning”

“There seemed to be open season on progressive and left-wing movements” he observes.
He referred again to the Stephen Lawrence family being spied on.

He would like this Inquiry to address the lack of proportionality involved
He would also like the Inquiry to address what was right and what was wrong in history.
“I don't think it's acceptable to target environmentalists who are alerting us to the climate change catastrophe and put them on terrorist lists”
Hain says that he is no “starry eyed romantic”, that he supports the rule of law and wants to see effective policing.

He says the record of these #spycops units is a “pretty sorry record”

He hopes that the Chair's final recommendations will help to ensure that this kind of intrusion does not happen again, and does not happen now.
We then had a short break, in case anyone wanted to submit follow-up questions for @PeterHain
There weren't any further questions for Hain, so today's hearing ended at 4.25pm.

The #SpyCopsInquiry will be back at 10am on Tuesday 4th May
Mitting thanked Lord Hain for the "obvious care and thought that he had put in" to his evidence.
Hain thanked Barr for his professionalism.
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