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I don& #39;t normally do this, but I felt a strong need to respond to this particular statement. I think there are serious flaws in logic here that deserve to be explored. First, I want to be clear that I& #39;m not singling out Hank here; Hank is a find person, from what I can tell, ... https://twitter.com/hankrsmith/status/1385013613862088710">https://twitter.com/hankrsmit...
...but this is a train of thought that I& #39;ve found is very common among many Latter-day Saints, and I& #39;ve never really seen it go questioned. So I want to be clear that this isn& #39;t a "callout" against Hank, just an attempt on my own part to explore the argument made here. ...
To paraphrase Spinoza, my goal here is not to deride, lament, or ridicule, but to build understanding. So what follows is my best attempt to explain what I mean when I say I believe there are serious flaws tot his argument:
1) The first reason is socio-religious. The problems with statements like the above is that they are received by different audiences in different ways; this isn& #39;t to say that people are simply "offended,"but that different groups of people use phrases like this in different ways.
For instance, a phrase like the above might be utilized by a traditional Latter-day Saint as an emotional rationalization for their continued membership in the LDS Church and participation in its ritual complex. For them, this phrase is heartening because it paints a world ...
...that runs much like a gameshow, one in which they just so happened to guess correctly and win the "prize" (or be promised a prize down the road); the added clause that were it not for the gameshow, or had they chosen "incorrectly," there would be no prizes at all, serves to...
...further emotionally satisfy the traditional Latter-day Saint receiving this message. I don& #39;t think there& #39;s much inherently wrong with such a cultural ritual - everyone does them, and they seem mostly innocuous. But if we& #39;re going to be a global people and church, I think ...
...we need to think more globally.
The above states that if Smith were not a prophet (and we& #39;ll leave aside the hard work of defining our terms for a moment), then there is no such thing as eternal relationships. There are already serious flaws in this reasoning, as Smith ...
The above states that if Smith were not a prophet (and we& #39;ll leave aside the hard work of defining our terms for a moment), then there is no such thing as eternal relationships. There are already serious flaws in this reasoning, as Smith ...
...himself does not equal "eternal marriage," and therefore were he not what he claimed to be that does not mean that there is therefore no eternal marriage. It would be like saying that were I not a Twitter user, annoying quote tweet threads wouldn& #39;t exist - ...
...no one would write them! Boy would you be wrong!
But there& #39;s a bigger issue here. Many traditional Latter-day Saints have developed the naughty habit of insisting that because "other Christians" use phrases like "till death do you part," that not only does this mean that ...
But there& #39;s a bigger issue here. Many traditional Latter-day Saints have developed the naughty habit of insisting that because "other Christians" use phrases like "till death do you part," that not only does this mean that ...
... that particular marriage ceremony mechanically *necessitates* that the newlyweds& #39; relationship *must* end cold-turkey at death, but the insinuation that those "other Christians" actually *want* there relationships to have an end - otherwise, why would they say it? But ...
...there are serious flaws here too, mostly circulating around what psychologists call "pluralistic ignorance," a very common and very human tendency we have to be ignorant of what others are actually thinking in a situation. Like I said, phrases like this, too, seem to serve ...
...as a means for some traditional Latter-day Saints to cheaply pat themselves on the back and reassure themselves that not only do they get to be with their families for ever, but that others that they believe won& #39;t have that chance wouldn& #39;t really even want it anyway. The ...
... problem though is that this is, again, pluralistic ignorance. The phrase "till death do you part" may mean nothing more than that death is a parting, as it is with any temple sealing; when the person dies, you part with them. The phrase does not say "till death do you part...
...for eternity." Moreover, many religious traditions, if not on an institutional level, then on a cultural level (and distinguishing the two is far more difficult than most Westerners seem to realize), believe in something if not exactly like the Mormon concept of eternal ...
...relationships, then something exceptionally similar. Eastern Orthodox marriages are often conducted with the ritual understanding that the husband and wife will be crowned on the throne of Christ together for eternity. As a missionary, I met people of all faiths (Islam, ...
...Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Baha& #39;i, and yes, even those "other Christians") who not only wholeheartedly believe that they can be with their loved ones after their mortal deaths, but that they very much want to be! Furthermore, there is nothing in scripture that even ...
...a mandatory separation of loved ones, let alone lovers, after death; indeed, the New Testament is silly with references to Jesus& #39; whole point being to give people not just this life, but this life eternally. The idea that the Mormons were the only ones smart enough to see ...
...that that could mean they could be with their loved ones in heaven after death is myopic, at best. Even little Christian children believe they& #39;ll see their deceased pets again in the next life. My point here is that if Smit wasn& #39;t a prophet (again, avoiding for the moment ...
...the work of defining terms), that does not at all mean that there is therefore no such thing as eternal marriage - just no such thing as Smith the prophet.
If you want another religion to teach you about eternal relationships, then there are plenty of options. But the ...
If you want another religion to teach you about eternal relationships, then there are plenty of options. But the ...
...more fundamental issue at hand is that even if these traditions didn& #39;t teach eternal relationships, including Mormonism, that would in no way effect whether there actually are eternal relationships after death. Which brings me to my next point.
2) I detest memes for conversations like these, so please know that I& #39;m not using this one to belittle or as a substitute for an argument, but because I think it& #39;s wonderfully (if bitingly) concise:
https://atheistforum.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/jesus-knock-knock.jpg">https://atheistforum.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/j...
https://atheistforum.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/jesus-knock-knock.jpg">https://atheistforum.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/j...
We must be cautious when constructing theology, because one of the *big* reasons many leave their religious traditions is because that theology goes from being a series of problems looking for a solution to a series of solutions looking for problems. As mentioned in point 1, ...
...not only do many people believe they will be with their loved ones eternally after death (or at least that they can be, if they like), many religious traditions even teach such an idea. I& #39;ve heard one member of Community of Christ, formerly a member of the LDS Church, ...
...describe this experience they had repeatedly as a missionary: that they would have numerous great lessons about eternal relationships with investigators who wholeheartedly agreed, only to get to the point where as missionaries (and thus, in as neutral a way as possible, ...
...as marketers for the LDS Church), they would then insist to these investigators that they *can& #39;t* be together with their loved ones unless they go through the LDS Church. As a missionary myself, I saw numerous moments when this particular part of this genuinely beautiful ...
...Mormon idea was warped into a cheap means of manipulating emotionally vulnerable people into joining the Church. Not everyone did this, of course, but those who did could do so very easily - and that& #39;s a problem. Unfortunately, many traditional Latter-day Saints don& #39;t seem ...
...to believe in eternal relationships so much as they believe in a cosmic TSA meant to check you for the "right" passport, stamps, and signatures before letting you on to see your family (assuming they too had the "right" passport, stamps, and signatures). ...
...But, one may be inclined to argue, who cares about that litte quibble if it& #39;s "true"? Which, it may surprise you to find out, brings me to my third and final point.
3) On theological grounds I believe this legalistic, bureaucratic interpretation of ...
3) On theological grounds I believe this legalistic, bureaucratic interpretation of ...
...priesthood and ordinances is deeply out of step with the theology Joseph Smith outlined especially at the end of his life. Because an interpretation is popular does not render it authoritative, nor does that interpretation being held by a particular authority figure make ...
...it authoritative (eg, we do not believe, nor should we [have] believe[d], that people of color were born "not white" because they were "fence-sitters" in the pre-mortal war in heaven just because Harold B. Lee as president of the Church taught this in general conference). ...
...Moreover, while we certainly don& #39;t have to agree with Joseph Smith in all things to be good Mormons, if we& #39;re going to claim that our ideas are validated by him as our prophet (again deferring the definition of terms here), it behooves us to explore those teachings. ...
Joseph Smith made several descriptive statements about what the world would look like upon reuniting with the Messiah. In order of the appearance of each statement, here are three representative remarks which describe the overarching themes of Smith’s metaphysics: ...
(A) In September 1830, Smith dictated a revelation which describes, among other things, an eschatological end when “all the dead [shall] awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth — yea, even all” (D&C 29:26; see also Alma 11:41).
(B) In early 1842, in response to John Wentworth of the Chicago Democrat, Smith wrote “that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Article of Faith 10).
(C) While attending a conference in Ramus, Illinois, in early April 1843, Smith delivered some theological instruction in which he stated that, upon the return of Jesus, the “same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with ...
...eternal glory” (D&C 130:2).
These three texts are critical touchstones when exploring Mormonism. In them are three assertions: 1) God considers bodies important enough to return them in resurrection; 2) the physical world is not to be disregarded or abandoned, but to be ...
These three texts are critical touchstones when exploring Mormonism. In them are three assertions: 1) God considers bodies important enough to return them in resurrection; 2) the physical world is not to be disregarded or abandoned, but to be ...
...maintained as a “paradise”; and 3) the work of social relations does not end at death, but carries on eternally. Mormonism seems to suggest something which may feel initially strange, yet which is altogether viscerally familiar — familiar because it is precisely what we’re ...
...doing this very second. When one wishes to flee this frail existence, shed their body, unburden themselves of others, and finally be free from this or any other undesired moment, Mormonism rests a gentle hand on a very solid shoulder and asks for a reappraisal. Rather than ...
...something altogether “beyond” present experience, Mormonism suggests that life after death will differ from life before death in the very same way life today differs from life tomorrow or yesterday. In other words, Mormonism does not snap existence into ...
...“this life” and the “afterlife,” but simply extends this life and all that comes with it — indefinitely. Therefore, it seems appropriate to say that Mormonism may be reducible to one simple injunction: live in this and every moment as if it were going to last forever. ...
...On a related note, Smith describes the Melchizedek priesthood and its ordinances as that which “administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness ...
...is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; for without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live” (D&C 84:19–22). The priesthood here is described ...
...as authoritative insofar as it is illustrative. Rather than actualizing divine realities for those who participate in these ordinances, the priesthood instead reveals a web of divine possibilities, then challenges participants through volitional covenants to embody those ...
...ideals in themselves. In the symbolic acts of ordinances, divine possibilities are “manifest” — unveiled — and in their attendant covenants, individuals and families willingly vow to transmute these possibilities into realities. For example, Mormonism presumes a world ...
...in which individuals consciously live forever after the death of their bodies; however, people may only share eternal relationships insofar as the individuals involved are willing to create and nurture such relationships. The former may be true independently of our actions ...
...(consciousness may persist after death, regardless of what we do), but the latter is only true if we make it true. We might describe the Mormon ritual complex as a series of tools to help alleviate whatever ludonarrative dissonance may exist in either the uniquely Mormon ...
...mythology, or, in this case, in the mythos of eternal relationships.
On a more personal note, I don& #39;t need a religion that tells me about a series of secret and exclusive rituals I can undergo and holds me to a number of arbitrary rules thereafter in order to get God to ...
On a more personal note, I don& #39;t need a religion that tells me about a series of secret and exclusive rituals I can undergo and holds me to a number of arbitrary rules thereafter in order to get God to ...
...allow me to be with my loved ones after I die; I need a religion that gives me opportunities to become the kind of person who can create healthy relationships here and now, so that I and others will want to be with one another after death, in marriage or otherwise. ...
To be frank, if it& #39;s a pill that seems hard to swallow, perhaps that& #39;s because it& #39;s not a pill at all - but a mere choking hazard.
Again, I want to be very clear here that despite my passion, this is not an attack on Hank, whom I actually believe seems to be a good person. ...
Again, I want to be very clear here that despite my passion, this is not an attack on Hank, whom I actually believe seems to be a good person. ...
This is simply my entirely subjective, limited attempt to address the above argument, which is common to many traditional Latter-day Saints, and which has gone frequently unquestioned despite its flaws. I want to thank Hank for being a positive light to so many people and for ...
...indulging me here. I wish him the best!
Addressing the additional tweets Hank raises in his thread, I think my previous points (especially 1 and 2) still serve as adequate responses. Again, addressing only the arguments, and wishing Hank the best.
