I think one thing many nb women don't get re: "black women aren't afforded femininity" is that it's not saying "we see nb women have pink shackles but we have blue ones and we want pink ones" but "we would like to be allowed to be human, and being masculinized doesn't allow that"

For a lot of nonblack women, "masculinity" is something to strive for- when we're constantly held to this caricature of a doll-like, frail, small, and submissive woman, naturally, we resist. These "feminine" characteristics don't allow us to be fully human, and deviation from

this is met with social antagonism and even outright violence. So I understand why, at a superficial glance, nb (esp white) women interpret black women say "I don't get to be feminine" as some kind of "I wish I had your flavor of oppression". But... that's not what's being said.

Imagine that instead of being seen as perpetually frail and weak, you were seen as unnaturally strong and resilient, not allowed to express emotion, any protest to your oppression seen as violence. Now, imagine this coming not only from men of your race, but everyone of any race

You are still female, but you are free from your pink shackles of "femininity". But are you actually free? Or were you simply given different shackles? Is your humanity simply... denied again, just differently? Are you allowed to exist as yourself, or you still forced into a box?

And worst of all, are you even seen as "female"? Or are you seen as some vaguely female-shaped, male-adjacent, subhuman thing? Is that liberty? Or is it simply another way of dehumanizing a woman? Of telling her she is not only less than a man, but less than other women too?

Further, as much as we disparage the performance of femininity, there are "feminine" traits that we see as positive: empathy, warmth, the ability to be vulnerable, acts of sisterhood, motherhood, kindness, mutual understanding, etc. We appreciate the female form and endurance.

We have discussions on how many of the traits men disparage as "weak" and "feminine" are neutral, or even good. How it's great that we can be open and honest about our feelings, that we can let ourselves cry when we are sad. We point out that male ideas of power and strength

can be harmful to women, that assuming those are real power is just male-centric theory. Does feminism resist these "feminine" aspects too? Or does it appreciate these, encourage these traits, define these as ways in which we are different from, even better than, men?

Why, then, do we (nb women) tell black women they should be happy when these traits are denied to them- by us, even? That they should be content to be seen as proximal to men and lesser to us, that they should be happy to be called "manly", "angry", "brutish" and "violent"?

Why do we not allow black women to express that they want to be allowed to be people, with all that entails? That they want to be see as people with a range of emotions, who can be vulnerable, who can need protection, who can want help? That they want to be seen as women?

Why do we tell them they should be happy to be seen as masculine caricatures-- because *we* want anything except proximity to "femininity"? Liberation for women as a class is not taking on male attributes. It's not going to come from swinging from one extreme to the other.

After all, if we all had to assimilate to maleness to be free, that would be equality, not liberty and radfems of all people should know that this isn't something to strive for. Women should be allowed to be *human*, not perceived as dehumanized, gender-boxed caricatures.

All of this is without even getting into the struggles of black women in America in history, medical experimentation on black women, how men treat bw, etc. These issues come up just from nbw talking to and about bw. And if we can't listen and have these conversations in RF spaces

it's really no wonder black feminists have often decided to go their own way. There is a tendency, esp w/ white women, of defensiveness and an implicit assumption that anything black women say about themselves is actually about white women. It's not. Obviously there are universal

female experiences, but the way that patriarchies oppress on women is as diverse as the men that benefit from exploiting us. And when parts of another woman's oppression look different from our own, we must ask her how *we can help her*, not tell her not to complain too loudly.

It's important to recognize that if we are not black, we will never personally understand the specific struggles bw go through, and that means we need to listen and support, not try to give them a solution that works for us, or to see them as enemies or having different goals.

Obviously, I'm nb, so if you want to actually know about bw's issues, you really need to engage with what black women have to say about themselves, but this thread was sparked by some of the responses I saw to Nev's thread: https://twitter.com/vulvaluvr/status/1384903859605286914?s=20 (separate so as not to derail)

I keep seeing the same exact superficial takes from nbw every time bw try to talk about misogynoir and hopefully this explains a bit to you all why that's frustrating and why we often approach these convos in all the wrong ways. Anyway, lmk if I've missed the mark.