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Ok, this is such a perfect tankie thread on Ukraine that it might as well be parody.
So let's unpack it, shall we?
Let us start with this 2015 photo every tankie uses to prove Ukraine is a fascist hellhole.
It shows the Azov battalion (now a regiment) of the National Guard.
So let's unpack it, shall we?
Let us start with this 2015 photo every tankie uses to prove Ukraine is a fascist hellhole.
It shows the Azov battalion (now a regiment) of the National Guard.
The narrative seems to be that Azov is the willing and eager arm of the fascist Kyiv junta.
The reality is, of course, more complicated.
Azov is a multi-faceted far-right movement. Its political wing, the National Corps, regularly protests against the government.
The reality is, of course, more complicated.
Azov is a multi-faceted far-right movement. Its political wing, the National Corps, regularly protests against the government.
The National Corps is also a political party — which routinely polls under 2% in national elections, less than a pro-Russian Youtuber Anatoliy Sharij.
In 2019, it ran together with Svoboda, another far-right party. The nationalist bloc barely broke 2%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election#Results
In 2019, it ran together with Svoboda, another far-right party. The nationalist bloc barely broke 2%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election#Results
Just recently, Svoboda's leader Koshulinsky failed to win even a third of the vote in a parliamentary by-election in Ivano-Frankivsk, seen as a Svoboda stronghold.
The seat was won by president Zelensky's populist "Servant of the people". https://ukranews.com/en/news/766903-virastiuk-31-5-shevchenko-29-5-koshulynskyi-28-8-in-additional-mp-election-in-ivano-frankivsk
The seat was won by president Zelensky's populist "Servant of the people". https://ukranews.com/en/news/766903-virastiuk-31-5-shevchenko-29-5-koshulynskyi-28-8-in-additional-mp-election-in-ivano-frankivsk
Despite Azov's unpopularity, its outsized influence is explained by patronage from powerful security minister Arsen Avakov (an Armenian from Kharkiv, hardly a white nationalist himself, seen here with Azov's leader Andriy Biletsky).
Avakov's and larger security apparatus influence is seen as a problem in Ukraine, and people regularly protest against it.
Importantly, Azov does not enjoy patronage from the US, which labels it a "nationalist hate group"
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook
Importantly, Azov does not enjoy patronage from the US, which labels it a "nationalist hate group"
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook
Ok, with Azov out of the way, let's move on to that thread.
So far so good, although Russia's security-oligarch clique protecting their assets in countries that have seen Russian resource exploitation, settler colonialism and cultural oppression is hardly "technical" imperialism
So far so good, although Russia's security-oligarch clique protecting their assets in countries that have seen Russian resource exploitation, settler colonialism and cultural oppression is hardly "technical" imperialism
I am sure the Georgians/Ukrainians/Syrians who have lost their homes and loved ones would be relieved to hear that their woes are small and insignificant compared to the larger Anglo-Euro imperialism.
Ok, now do Cuba.
Seriously, you can invade other countries to guarantee your own "security"? 19th century called, they want their foreign policy back.
Seriously, you can invade other countries to guarantee your own "security"? 19th century called, they want their foreign policy back.
The very notion that some sinister Western influence can coddle millions of people into protesting, risking their lives and health against brutal riot police, is extremely orientalist in that it denies the colonized peoples agency in favor of a trite "Great Game" narrative
Even though the far-right did join the Euromaidan protests (which were triggered by then-president Yanukovych refused to sign an association agreement with the EU, not NATO), the "fascist coup" notion is bullshit because most Ukrainians supported it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140125085358/http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11002.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20140125085358/http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11002.html
Compare with the 2% support the far-right parties currently enjoy.
I should add that after a time the protests weren't so much about the EU as they were about corruption and creeping dictatorization of Yanukovych's presidency - problems that concern Ukrainians to this day.
I should add that after a time the protests weren't so much about the EU as they were about corruption and creeping dictatorization of Yanukovych's presidency - problems that concern Ukrainians to this day.
The notion of the protests being a "violent coup" is ahistorical - it started entirely peaceful, and the escalation was driven by security forces - from when Berkut riot police violently dispersed a sleep-in at Kyiv's Maidan (Independence Square) in late November 2013.
That cycle culminated in late February 2014, when security forces killed a hundred protesters armed with shields and hard hats.
The violence horrified even Yanukovych's own party, he lost all support, fled the country and was removed by the parliament (think US 25th Amendment).
The violence horrified even Yanukovych's own party, he lost all support, fled the country and was removed by the parliament (think US 25th Amendment).
Apart from the fact that this is so imperialist it hurts, consider the fact that Ukraine had had a pro-Western president bent on joining NATO.
Viktor Yuschenko, poisoned by Dioxine during the campaign, was in office from 2005 to 2010 - ample time to fast-track NATO membership.
Viktor Yuschenko, poisoned by Dioxine during the campaign, was in office from 2005 to 2010 - ample time to fast-track NATO membership.
Despite Yuschenko's aspirations, the West was not exactly keen on Ukraine joining NATO - it limited itself to an exercise in Crimea, which Americans might remember because protests against it were organized by then-Yanukovych advisor Paul Manafort. https://taskandpurpose.com/news/manafort-connected-ukraine-attack-marines-trump/
In fact, joining NATO didn't even enjoy plurality support in Ukraine before the 2014 invasion — because who would they want protection against, Russia? Preposterous!
It is still a contentious issue (unlike joining the EU), despite everything. https://www.unian.info/society/poll-ukrainian-speak-out-on-eu-nato-membership-prospects-11215232.html
It is still a contentious issue (unlike joining the EU), despite everything. https://www.unian.info/society/poll-ukrainian-speak-out-on-eu-nato-membership-prospects-11215232.html
NATO was so hell-bent on invading Russia that Western troops weren't even permanently stationed in the Baltic NATO countries in 2015, a whole year after Russia started its war against Ukraine, another former Soviet republic.
https://www.dw.com/en/baltic-countries-to-ask-nato-for-thousands-of-permanent-troops/a-18450863
Now, on to the Big Bullshit.
https://www.dw.com/en/baltic-countries-to-ask-nato-for-thousands-of-permanent-troops/a-18450863
Now, on to the Big Bullshit.
The Big Bullshit, which comes straight out of Russian propaganda, is "Russian-speaking = Russian".
In fact, while a quarter of Ukrainians predominantly speak Russian at home, a mere 6% identified as ethnic Russian in a 2015 poll.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/682708.html
https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2017/06/17/7147226/
In fact, while a quarter of Ukrainians predominantly speak Russian at home, a mere 6% identified as ethnic Russian in a 2015 poll.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/682708.html
https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2017/06/17/7147226/
Of course, it's more complicated - self-identity and language preferences are fluid, and not identifying with a country that's invading you or not speaking "their" language is a valid choice.
But "Russian-speaking = Russian" is equivalent to "Most Irish are English in denial".
But "Russian-speaking = Russian" is equivalent to "Most Irish are English in denial".
In fact, "Most Ukrainians are Russian in denial" is a well-known Russian nationalist position.
In Ukraine under Russian Empire, Russian used to be the language of educated elites and urban communities. Russian nationalists regard Ukrainian as "funny peasant dialect" to this day.
In Ukraine under Russian Empire, Russian used to be the language of educated elites and urban communities. Russian nationalists regard Ukrainian as "funny peasant dialect" to this day.
To close the language issue, next time you hear how the fascist dictator Zelensky is going to invade Crimea and kill Russian babies any time now, remember that he is a Russian speaker himself, and his Ukrainian was not quite good during the presidential campaign back in 2019.
Using other countries for "security/self-defence" IS imperialism, my dude.
Also "NATO activity in Ukraine" is limited to a training facility in the far West of the country, the US supplying anti-tank missiles and Turkey selling Bayraktar drones (both independently from NATO).
Also "NATO activity in Ukraine" is limited to a training facility in the far West of the country, the US supplying anti-tank missiles and Turkey selling Bayraktar drones (both independently from NATO).
Ok this is just unhinged, so instead of debunking, let's drive another historical comparison.
"The Anglo-French Entente seeking to bring in Czechoslovakia is a major security threat to the German Reich [insert scary arrows and an ethnic map of the Sudetenland here]".
![Ok this is just unhinged, so instead of debunking, let's drive another historical comparison."The Anglo-French Entente seeking to bring in Czechoslovakia is a major security threat to the German Reich [insert scary arrows and an ethnic map of the Sudetenland here]".](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyHUM4ZW8AAIwK1.png "Ok this is just unhinged, so instead of debunking, let's drive another historical comparison.\"The Anglo-French Entente seeking to bring in Czechoslovakia is a major security threat to the German Reich [insert scary arrows and an ethnic map of the Sudetenland here]\".")
"The Anglo-French Entente seeking to bring in Czechoslovakia is a major security threat to the German Reich [insert scary arrows and an ethnic map of the Sudetenland here]".
"While certainly socialist in name only, Hitler's Germany is a major bulwark against Anglo-French imperialism, which is why any Communist must opposed the unfair Versailles treaty and Entente saber-rattling".
Back then, this was too bullshit even for Stalin, and it is so now.
Back then, this was too bullshit even for Stalin, and it is so now.
Ah, the good old "Russian communists are the real opposition".
First, the KPRF are a social conservative party whose ideology is best described as "Soviet nationalism" - boomer nostalgia for Red empire and "iron hand".
Which is why it votes for all landgrabs and repressive laws
First, the KPRF are a social conservative party whose ideology is best described as "Soviet nationalism" - boomer nostalgia for Red empire and "iron hand".
Which is why it votes for all landgrabs and repressive laws
(Yes, that includes the infamous "gay propaganda" law).
There might be real opposition within the KPRF, such as activists and MPs who supported recent Russian anti-corruption protests, but tankies would label them "shitlibs" and "CIA shills". https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/02/12/russias-communists-are-split-over-support-for-navalny-a72917
There might be real opposition within the KPRF, such as activists and MPs who supported recent Russian anti-corruption protests, but tankies would label them "shitlibs" and "CIA shills". https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/02/12/russias-communists-are-split-over-support-for-navalny-a72917
First, there is no "NATO aggression against Russia", which any military expert would tell you just by comparing the numbers of NATO vs Russian troops near Ukraine and in the wider region (I am not a military expert, I just look at convoy videos to cringe Russian pop on TikTok).
Secondly and finally, the notion of a "clash of civilizations" between the Atlanteans and the Eurasians is a tenet of Duginism, a Russian far-right ideology that seeks to antagonize Russia from an amorphous "West", complete with scary maps.
In fact, Russia is a European colonial power which, due to flukes of history and its empire being contiguos, hasn't finished the decolonization process that others went through in the 20th century.
Think of the current war in Ukraine as Anglo-Irish or Franco-Algerian wars.
Think of the current war in Ukraine as Anglo-Irish or Franco-Algerian wars.
In conclusion, I do not want Western "communists", especially those taking their display name from a dictator who organized numerous genocides and ethnic cleansings, to support Ukraine.
I want them to shut up, and I want you not to believe the bullshit they saw on RT.
/end
I want them to shut up, and I want you not to believe the bullshit they saw on RT.
/end
Addendum: If you do not care about Rusich, a Russian neo-nazi militia that fought against Ukraine and has now largely joined "Wagner", a covert state-aligned PMC whose leader Dmitry "Wagner" Utkin has SS tattoos, spare me your bullshit about "Ukrainian Nazi Junta".
Addendum 2: I have been informed that the OP photograph with a swastika flag was, in fact, photoshopped, because in Ukraine, if Azov actually paraded around with swastikas, they'd lose any good will they got for fighting against the Russians in Mariupol.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html?m=1
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html?m=1
What tankies think the Ukrainian army is like:
What it's actually like: one guy with a totenkopf patch gets into a photo with the president and everyone loses their shit for a month
What it's actually like: one guy with a totenkopf patch gets into a photo with the president and everyone loses their shit for a month
And no, you won't find information about the TotenKopfGate in Western media, because it is not about the aZoV bAtTaLiOn.
Suffice it to say, those who defended the Totenkopf guy claimed not "SS Totenkopf was based actually", but "It's not Nazi to wear a skull with bones".
Suffice it to say, those who defended the Totenkopf guy claimed not "SS Totenkopf was based actually", but "It's not Nazi to wear a skull with bones".
Great to illustrate my point that there, indeed, were some far-right at the protests.
The occupied Kyiv City Hall was a free-for-all basically, you probably could put any banner there especially if the normies have no idea what the fuck it is supposed to mean.
The occupied Kyiv City Hall was a free-for-all basically, you probably could put any banner there especially if the normies have no idea what the fuck it is supposed to mean.
There was also a Syrian revolutionary flag at the Maidan, which probably makes all the protesters headchopping jihadis in tankieland.
I actually had to go to the Azov website in search for context.
https://nackor.org/ukr/do-polku-azov-zavitala-mizhnarodna-monitoringova-grupa-nato
This is a NATO monitoring mission that went to Azov HQ as part of a trip to the frontline.
Idk, if you are accused of supporting Nazi war criminals, probably a good idea to monitor them?
https://nackor.org/ukr/do-polku-azov-zavitala-mizhnarodna-monitoringova-grupa-nato
This is a NATO monitoring mission that went to Azov HQ as part of a trip to the frontline.
Idk, if you are accused of supporting Nazi war criminals, probably a good idea to monitor them?
Actually just months after that visit, Congress specifically banned military assistance to Azov (not that those two events are in any way related, but this is what matters, not photo-ops by Azov to make them look respectable) https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis
The Bankova clashes on December first happened _after_ riot police dispersed the peaceful sleep-in at the Maidan square.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25164990
And I am sorry, I have no more time for Antifa Blue Lives Matter caucus, I have Russian convoys to watch. Blocked.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25164990
And I am sorry, I have no more time for Antifa Blue Lives Matter caucus, I have Russian convoys to watch. Blocked.
