Services Australia says the estates of 3,300 people who have died are owed robodebt refunds. They are still working through this process.

Have debts been paid to people on the cashless debit card? 1,760 are expected to get a refund or have their debts zeroed. 1,620 have been repaid.

Important: the money went into their regular bank account, not the card.

Siewert asks how much the refunds process has cost. They say it has been done within the agency using "internal resources". They take on notice how many staff have been engaged in the process.

It was estimated internally earlier in the year it would be $200m in internal resources https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/10/robodebt-total-value-of-debts-issued-under-unlawful-centrelink-scheme-to-exceed-1bn-refund

Labor's Deb O'Neill pointedly notes she will be asking questions about "robodebt" - quotes from the Commonwealth's own defence to the class action. Kathryn Campbell: "I've heard what you've said."

O'Neill is asking about this, from the Gordon Legal amended statement of claim https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/19/robodebt-court-documents-show-government-was-warned-76-times-debts-were-not-legally-enforceable

Liz Bundy, of Services Australia, says she's aware of the allegations in the statement of claim.

Did Centrelink appeal any of those decisions?
Bundy: These matters are before a court. They are allegations that haven't been found as fact before a court. Takes on notice whether they were appealed.

O'Neill: "I don't know how you couldn't know the answer?"
Services Australia CEO Rebecca Skinner says she doesn't have the information at hand.
O'Neill says as far as she's aware they did not appeal.
Bundy says it's not unusual not to appeal.

O'Neill points out by not appealing the decisions were not made public.

Bundy: I understand they are reviewed [AAT decisions].

Bundy is emphasising that each AAT decision turns on its own facts.

Key quote that goes to the government's defence from Liz Bundy: "There were decisions in the AAT that affirmed the use of averaging."
Skinner notes that they would have decisions that upheld the program.

Question of O'Neill to Kathryn Campbell: Were you aware of a pattern of decisions being overturned?
Campbell asks for the dates before she can answer.

Kathryn Campbell, who was head of the DHS of the time: "I knew had been and overruled and I knew that some had been returned and upheld." Disputes there was a "pattern".

Rex Patrick asked some very interesting questions about a similar apportioning issue, which I will try to come back to. Was writing a blog post. Deb O'Neill is now reading a decision from the "Spurling" AAT case

Sorry, it's the Treble case. One of the cases where the debt were overturned

In overturning the decision, Member Treble said "it is not consistent with the requirements of the legislation."
O'Neill: "Isn't that a fireworks moment in your department?"

Officials take on notice what happened in response to that decision.

Campbell says again that she believes the scheme was lawful when it first started in 2015. She notes that DSS was the "policy entity" at the time. Campbell was head of DHS.

Interestingly, the social services minister at the time was Scott Morrison

O'Neill: was your faith in the program shaken by the Treble decision?

Campbell: "I am not aware that I would have read that document ... I would have relied the officers that were raising it. I can't recall whether it was raised with me or not."

Among the factors the government is supposed to consider when appealing an AAT decision, Services Australia official Annette Musolino says, is whether there is a point of law that needs to be clarified or defended.

Rachel Siewert asks why the overturned decisions weren't flagged.
Annette Musolino returns to the point that each case is individual

OK back after the break. It turns out there are 14,600 people who the agency hasn't been able to contact, not 30,000

There have been 489,000 debts that have been refunded.

Rachel Siewert asked earlier about the highest debt refunded to a cashless debit card. The answer is $30,072! The average is $1,811

Deb O'Neill tried to ask Kathryn Campbell about the Treble decision. But the public interest immunity claim has been invoked

So we are discussing Campbell's obligations in general about AAT decisions