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Dolph Schayes and Bob Pettit: Thread
I love NBA history. But even I think of these guys (esp Schayes) as obscure.
But they were the greatest PF of the first 40 years of the NBA, until Barkley & Karl Malone came along in 1980s. (Or maybe Hayes in 1970s.)
Let's take a look ...
I love NBA history. But even I think of these guys (esp Schayes) as obscure.
But they were the greatest PF of the first 40 years of the NBA, until Barkley & Karl Malone came along in 1980s. (Or maybe Hayes in 1970s.)
Let's take a look ...
Schayes played 1950-64
Accolades:
1971: Named one of 12 best players ever
1996: One of 50 best ever
6x 1st All-NBA
6x 2nd
When retired, ranked:
1st in WS, G, MP, PTS, REB, FGA, FG, FTA, FT
2nd in FT%
Current all-time ranks:
31st in WS
27 WS/48
32 OWS
32 DWS
38 PER
17 REB/G
Accolades:
1971: Named one of 12 best players ever
1996: One of 50 best ever
6x 1st All-NBA
6x 2nd
When retired, ranked:
1st in WS, G, MP, PTS, REB, FGA, FG, FTA, FT
2nd in FT%
Current all-time ranks:
31st in WS
27 WS/48
32 OWS
32 DWS
38 PER
17 REB/G
Pettit played 1955-65:
1971: Named one of 12 best players ever
1996: One of 50 best ever
In 11 seasons:
10x 1st All-NBA
1x 2nd All-NBA
10x Top-4 in P/G
10x top-5 in R/G
2x MVP
9x Top-6 in MVP voting
Current all-time rankings:
8th P/G (26.4)
3rd R/G (16.2)
7th PER
15th WS/48
1971: Named one of 12 best players ever
1996: One of 50 best ever
In 11 seasons:
10x 1st All-NBA
1x 2nd All-NBA
10x Top-4 in P/G
10x top-5 in R/G
2x MVP
9x Top-6 in MVP voting
Current all-time rankings:
8th P/G (26.4)
3rd R/G (16.2)
7th PER
15th WS/48
Although it was published in 1992, "Tall Tales" by Terry Pluto remains the best book on early NBA history. Highly recommended!
BTW, Pluto also wrote "Loose Balls" on ABA history.
BTW, Pluto also wrote "Loose Balls" on ABA history.
Dolph Schayes
Born in 1928.
He grew up in the Bronx, the quintessential NYC player: A gym rat who was flashy but tough, drove to the hoop, good passer.
Unlike many NYC players, he was a great outside shooter, NBA's best/second best in his era (Bill Sharman).
Star in HS.
Born in 1928.
He grew up in the Bronx, the quintessential NYC player: A gym rat who was flashy but tough, drove to the hoop, good passer.
Unlike many NYC players, he was a great outside shooter, NBA's best/second best in his era (Bill Sharman).
Star in HS.
Schayes played college ball at NYU, 1945-48. He started all 4 years. He led NYU to two NCAA tournaments, losing by 4 points in championship game in 1945.
1948: Played for Syracuse Nationals of NBL. Won Rookie of the Year award.
Nats then moved to NBA in 1949.
1948: Played for Syracuse Nationals of NBL. Won Rookie of the Year award.
Nats then moved to NBA in 1949.
Schayes combined finesse with toughness and a solid build. Versatile: outside shooting with driving to the hoop. Low FG% (98 FG+). But drew fouls and made FT, so excellent TS+ (108).
11x in top 8 in P/G.
In top 5 in R/G his first 9 years.
Later played more on the perimeter.
11x in top 8 in P/G.
In top 5 in R/G his first 9 years.
Later played more on the perimeter.
Schayes averaged 20 & 10 for 7 yrs. He also had 20 & 10 in 7 POs, including 28 & 12 and 29 & 10.
In 1955, he led Nats to best record and champ. He likely would have won MVP, DPOY, & FMVP that season if those awards had existed then.
Should have 3 MVP: https://twitter.com/grisingTRS/status/1258503726446198785
In 1955, he led Nats to best record and champ. He likely would have won MVP, DPOY, & FMVP that season if those awards had existed then.
Should have 3 MVP: https://twitter.com/grisingTRS/status/1258503726446198785
Schayes contemporaries compared him Larry Bird: great outside/FT shooter, rebounder, scorer, tough. Schayes drove to hoop more; Bird passed more.
Here are career per 36 MP stats, ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS, R/G, A/G, P/G Player
.572, 9.3, 3.3, 20.1 Schayes
.549, 9.4, 5.3, 22.0 Bird
Here are career per 36 MP stats, ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS, R/G, A/G, P/G Player
.572, 9.3, 3.3, 20.1 Schayes
.549, 9.4, 5.3, 22.0 Bird
Like Bird, Schayes was an underrated defender:
DWS/48:
.078 Schayes
.082 Bird
Schayes anchored Nats' D, which was typically 2nd in NBA (Behind Mikan's Lakers in early 1950s; Russell's Celtics, 1957-on).
In 1955, Schayes led in DWS and would have been DPOY that year, in IMO.
DWS/48:
.078 Schayes
.082 Bird
Schayes anchored Nats' D, which was typically 2nd in NBA (Behind Mikan's Lakers in early 1950s; Russell's Celtics, 1957-on).
In 1955, Schayes led in DWS and would have been DPOY that year, in IMO.
Schayes also raised his game in the playoffs.
5x over .220 WS/48 in POs
8x over 22.5 PER
WS/48:
.192 RS
.189 PO
PER:
22.0
23.3
Schayes' per 36 MP stats, ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, TS+ R/G, A/G, P/G
.572, 108, 9.3, 3.3, 20.1 Regular Season
.583, 111, 9.5, 3.0, 22.2 Playoffs
5x over .220 WS/48 in POs
8x over 22.5 PER
WS/48:
.192 RS
.189 PO
PER:
22.0
23.3
Schayes' per 36 MP stats, ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, TS+ R/G, A/G, P/G
.572, 108, 9.3, 3.3, 20.1 Regular Season
.583, 111, 9.5, 3.0, 22.2 Playoffs
Schayes led Nats in WS in each of his first 10 seasons.
Led by Schayes, Nats were one of NBA's best teams.
In Schayes' 15 seasons, Nats:
15x in POs
3x in Finals
1x champ (in 1955 between the Mikan-Lakers dynasty and the Russell-Celtics dynasty).
Led by Schayes, Nats were one of NBA's best teams.
In Schayes' 15 seasons, Nats:
15x in POs
3x in Finals
1x champ (in 1955 between the Mikan-Lakers dynasty and the Russell-Celtics dynasty).
Bob Pettit
Grew up Baton Rouge, LA. Led HS team to state champ. Like Schayes, went to hometown college: LSU for Pettit.
1952-54, Pettit at LSU:
Averaged:
26 & 13
25 & 13
31 & 17
2x All-America
3x All-SEC
Took LSU to Final 4 in 1953.
First LSU athlete to have number retired.
Grew up Baton Rouge, LA. Led HS team to state champ. Like Schayes, went to hometown college: LSU for Pettit.
1952-54, Pettit at LSU:
Averaged:
26 & 13
25 & 13
31 & 17
2x All-America
3x All-SEC
Took LSU to Final 4 in 1953.
First LSU athlete to have number retired.
Pettit was a legit 6'9 player known for inside scoring, shooting, & REB, especially O REB. Efficient: 107 FG+, 109 TS+.
As a rookie, Pettit was very skinny, weighing about 200 pounds. But he was one of the first BBall weight trainers, gaining 40 pounds of muscle over his career.
As a rookie, Pettit was very skinny, weighing about 200 pounds. But he was one of the first BBall weight trainers, gaining 40 pounds of muscle over his career.
Pettit was drafted 2nd overall by Hawks, who were terrible.
In 1955, Pettit won ROY.
In 11 years, 1955-65:
11x over 20 & 12
9x over 25 & 15
10x top-4 in P/G
10x top-4 in R/G
4x led NBA in PER
2x led NBA in P/G
2x MVP
10x 1st All-NBA
Career stats:
26.4 (8th), 16.2 (3rd), 3.0
In 1955, Pettit won ROY.
In 11 years, 1955-65:
11x over 20 & 12
9x over 25 & 15
10x top-4 in P/G
10x top-4 in R/G
4x led NBA in PER
2x led NBA in P/G
2x MVP
10x 1st All-NBA
Career stats:
26.4 (8th), 16.2 (3rd), 3.0
Pettit turned Hawks franchise around. Pettit led Hawks in WS in 9 of 11 years.
In 1953, before Pettit, Hawks were 21-51.
1957-61, Hawks made 4 Finals (winning in 1958) in 5 yrs.
In 1958 championship-clinching game, Pettit had 50 (!) and 19 against Russell and the Celtics.
In 1953, before Pettit, Hawks were 21-51.
1957-61, Hawks made 4 Finals (winning in 1958) in 5 yrs.
In 1958 championship-clinching game, Pettit had 50 (!) and 19 against Russell and the Celtics.
Pettit's best modern comp is probably Karl Malone.
Career per 36 MP stats, ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G Player
.573, 9.9, 2.9, 23.7 Pettit
.568, 10.1, 3.4, 25.1 Malone
Similar numbers, but Malone a little better. Plus, Malone played 1476 games vs. Pettit's 792.
Career per 36 MP stats, ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G Player
.573, 9.9, 2.9, 23.7 Pettit
.568, 10.1, 3.4, 25.1 Malone
Similar numbers, but Malone a little better. Plus, Malone played 1476 games vs. Pettit's 792.
Like Malone (unfortunately), Pettit's stats dropped in the playoffs vs. his regular-season stats.
WS/48:
.213 RS
.159 PO
PER:
25.3 RS
22.6 PO
Stats per 36 MP ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, TS+ R/G, A/G, P/G
.573, 109, 9.9, 2.9, 23.7 Regular Season
.569, 109, 8.5, 2.5, 21.9 Playoffs
WS/48:
.213 RS
.159 PO
PER:
25.3 RS
22.6 PO
Stats per 36 MP ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, TS+ R/G, A/G, P/G
.573, 109, 9.9, 2.9, 23.7 Regular Season
.569, 109, 8.5, 2.5, 21.9 Playoffs
Who was better? Schayes or Pettit?
It's a hard comparison:
1) Their careers overlapped for 10 years.
But overall, Schayes played in a lower-scoring, lower-FG%, lower-REB era. So stats need to be adjusted for era.
2) We're not really sure about D. But I suspect Schayes>Pettit.
It's a hard comparison:
1) Their careers overlapped for 10 years.
But overall, Schayes played in a lower-scoring, lower-FG%, lower-REB era. So stats need to be adjusted for era.
2) We're not really sure about D. But I suspect Schayes>Pettit.
3) Pettit played a lot of MP for 11 years, injured knee, retired. He didn't have a decline phase.
Schayes played a lot of MP for 12 yrs. But his last 3 yrs, he was a secondary option. This decline phase lowered his overall stats.
4) Related, Schayes has longevity over Pettit.
Schayes played a lot of MP for 12 yrs. But his last 3 yrs, he was a secondary option. This decline phase lowered his overall stats.
4) Related, Schayes has longevity over Pettit.
Schayes vs. Pettit:
RS unadjusted stats:
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G
.488, 12.1, 3.1, 18.5 Schayes
.511, 16.2, 2.9, 26.4 Pettit
Clearly, Pettit > Schayes
Per 36 ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS, R/G, A/G, P/G
.572, 9.3, 3.3, 20.1 Schayes
.573, 9.9, 2.9, 23.7 Pettit
Closer, but still Pettit >DS
RS unadjusted stats:
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G
.488, 12.1, 3.1, 18.5 Schayes
.511, 16.2, 2.9, 26.4 Pettit
Clearly, Pettit > Schayes
Per 36 ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS, R/G, A/G, P/G
.572, 9.3, 3.3, 20.1 Schayes
.573, 9.9, 2.9, 23.7 Pettit
Closer, but still Pettit >DS
Advanced Stats: REGULAR SEASON:
WS:
142.4 DS
136.0 BP
WS/48:
.213 BP
.192 DS
DWS/48:
.078 DS
.069 BP
PER:
25.3 BP
22.0 DS
Fairly close, but clearly Pettit > Schayes
WS:
142.4 DS
136.0 BP
WS/48:
.213 BP
.192 DS
DWS/48:
.078 DS
.069 BP
PER:
25.3 BP
22.0 DS
Fairly close, but clearly Pettit > Schayes
PO raw stats:
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G
.501, 14.8, 2.7, 25.5 Pettit (40.3 MP/G)
.503, 12.2, 2.6, 19.5 Schayes (34.4 MP/G)
Pettit>Schayes
PO per 36 ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G
.569, 8.5, 2.5, 21.9 Pettit
.583, 9.5, 3.0, 22.2 Schayes
SURPRISING! Close but Schayes > Pettit!
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G
.501, 14.8, 2.7, 25.5 Pettit (40.3 MP/G)
.503, 12.2, 2.6, 19.5 Schayes (34.4 MP/G)
Pettit>Schayes
PO per 36 ADJUSTED FOR ERA:
TS%, R/G, A/G, P/G
.569, 8.5, 2.5, 21.9 Pettit
.583, 9.5, 3.0, 22.2 Schayes
SURPRISING! Close but Schayes > Pettit!
Advanced Stats: PLAYOFFS:
WS:
14.0 DS
11.7 BP
WS/48:
.189 DS
.159 BP
DWS/48:
.078 DS
.061 BP
PER:
23.3 DS
22.6 BP
Fairly close, but clearly Schayes > Pettit!
WS:
14.0 DS
11.7 BP
WS/48:
.189 DS
.159 BP
DWS/48:
.078 DS
.061 BP
PER:
23.3 DS
22.6 BP
Fairly close, but clearly Schayes > Pettit!
Schayes and Pettit were NBA's best PFs of its first 4 decades.
In RS, Pettit's raw stats are far superior to Schayes. But adjust for MP & era, and it's closer.
For POs, Schayes > Pettit in adv stats & stats adjusted for era & MP.
I'd take Pettit; but don't sleep on Schayes!
In RS, Pettit's raw stats are far superior to Schayes. But adjust for MP & era, and it's closer.
For POs, Schayes > Pettit in adv stats & stats adjusted for era & MP.
I'd take Pettit; but don't sleep on Schayes!
NBA history: Schayes & Pettit
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