Read on Twitter
Would recommend reading the replies to this if you think any of these things is uncomplicatedly bad and past membership is a black mark against someone.
(Kirsten is not saying they are/it is, but a lot of people replying are). https://twitter.com/Kirsten3531/status/1316129208729563136
(Kirsten is not saying they are/it is, but a lot of people replying are). https://twitter.com/Kirsten3531/status/1316129208729563136
Subthreads of note: https://twitter.com/captain_mrs/status/1316274575601213440
For the record I've not been a member of any of these, but you probably wouldn't like the tone of some of the IRC channels and forums I hung out on as a kid either (most of them were fine).
Sometimes the sort of community and social support that is needed by people who don't fit in won't be all shiny and nice like you want it to be. I'm not going to claim any of these things are *good*, but they all have good elements that were positively life-changing for some.
Ultimately you've got to accept that one of the following is true:
1. You're going to have to include "problematic" people in your community in order to help them learn to socialise.
2. People will form communities you don't like in order to support their needs.
1. You're going to have to include "problematic" people in your community in order to help them learn to socialise.
2. People will form communities you don't like in order to support their needs.
It's kinda the community version of https://twitter.com/vandeRede/status/1315447863409741824
If you demand perfection from a bunch of people who haven't learned to socially function yet, you're not actually helping them get better, you're just asking them to go away and die quietly somewhere they won't bother you.
Similarly, if you condemn people for having been members of these imperfect communities in the past, you're not actually helping you're just demonising people for coping with their problems as best as they knew how with the resources available to them at the time.
This also ties in with what I was explaining in https://twitter.com/GeniesLoki/status/1316118376251621376
People who have been through this sort of process are often going to be sensitive to the kind of language that was used against them.
People who have been through this sort of process are often going to be sensitive to the kind of language that was used against them.
The way a lot of SJ talks about people's imperfect strategies is very much a tone of "If I were you, I simply wouldn't have these problems in the first place". It's precisely the request to go away and die quietly.
I'm firmly on team "Patriarchy hurts men too", but honestly it's *incredibly* unsurprising that when you say that a lot of men who have struggled to fit in look for the dagger you're hiding behind your back while you're saying that.
Also, honestly, some of this is intrinsic in the theory and is not just its misapplication. The theory could and should be extended rather than abandoned, but the problems really are there right in its core.
I talked about The Scott Aaronson Incident in
https://twitter.com/GeniesLoki/status/1316123830721671169
Honestly I didn't care about 95% of the backlash it was very business as normal the response that enraged me the most was the supposedly empathetic one.
https://twitter.com/GeniesLoki/status/1316123830721671169
Honestly I didn't care about 95% of the backlash it was very business as normal the response that enraged me the most was the supposedly empathetic one.
"I'm sorry you're hurting but that's not the same as structural oppression" is a hell of a thing to say to a group of people who share a common set of traits that cause them to be systematically shunned and demonised because they've not learned to cope with things society demands
Feminism really does have a problem with systematically rejecting the places where the theory naturally could and should be extended to men, and the way it treats groups like this who have male-coded problems (and are also majority but not exclusively men) really brings it out.
If you don't believe me try saying "female privilege" to your average feminist and see how they react.
Privilege is a really useful framework for looking at a bunch of problems that men face that women don't. It's perfectly possible for both male and female privilege to exist.
Privilege is a really useful framework for looking at a bunch of problems that men face that women don't. It's perfectly possible for both male and female privilege to exist.
...but pointing this out is extremely unpopular.
I am apparently grouchy this morning and this topic brings that out extra hard.
Yes I'm aware that this is the most genteel version of hitting the roof you're likely to see on the twitternet. Some of us overcorrected when we finally learned to socialise, OK?
