Will be live-tweeting @PENamerica's fascinating activist exchange between @joshuawongcf and @OsopePatrisse, moderated by @baratunde. Incredibly rare and interesting discussion, particularly as both the US and Chinese govts use each other's example to justify police crackdown. https://twitter.com/baratunde/status/1308483443555147776

@OsopePatrisse really happy to have a conversation in the US about protests globally, don't allow US tribalism to take over the discussion about who is fighting for their lives.

What is freedom?

I have been doing a deep-dive on Harriet Tubman, obsessed with underground railroad

Created not only a physical, but a spiritual underground railroad.

We know how, we can't be free in this country when white supremacy, patriarchy, sexism exist.

For me, freedom looks like a world without prisons, cops, courts - as an abolitionist.

Freedom must be based on the freedom of *every single human being* - that's what freedom looks like to me.

@joshuawongcf: I want to congratulate Patrisse for Time 100.

Very sympathetic of Patrisse's book: when they call you terrorist. It seems inevitable that when there is a street resistance against police brutality and state power, they will be called terrorist.

I am stopped by plainclothes officers on a daily basis.

In a democracy, it is important to BOTH cast a vote and do street protests.

2 out of 7 people in all of Hong Kong have gone on the streets to protest for democracy and right elect leader. Youngest arrest is 11, oldest is 84. 10,000 ppl have been arrested for their protest involvement, some are being detained in Mainland China.

Q: What are the consequences of one's government turning against your people? What does it feel like:

A: @OsopePatrisse: when we started getting labelled as terrorists, I was first scared. But then I realized, as Josh says, when Black ppl in particular stand up to the state

stand up to police, we are always named enemies of state (vs. human beings trying to make our country better). Huey Newton, Angela Davis, Malcolm X.

But at end of the day, if we were listened to fully, our work benefits everybody.

What our governments are doing is trying to benefit the few, what we are doing is trying to benefit everyone.

The label of terrorist is attempting to stoke fear in people.

"If BLM gets their way, you will lose your house tomorrow"

Our job to challenge this fear. Challenge the disinformation that governments put out to get people scared.

Our call to action is to vote, yes, but vote *to build power*. Build power for a different world where we are all free.

Being labelled terrorist is something that dehumanizes us, relegates us as "evil" or "bad". Religious right calling us witches, taking us back to Salem witch tries, how powerful women have been demonized and even killed.

Label opens up doorway to treat us differently.

Q: What do you think your government is afraid of? What is like being labelled a terrorist/traitor

A: @joshuawongcf I started resisting education which forces people to be loyalty to the authoritarian regime. Govt has labelled us as facilitating local terrorism.

Problem with unchecked state power and police forces. Women have been gangraped by police and there has been no response or accountability.

18 districts - every single district has experienced tear gas and rubber bullets.

Terror of riot police busting in and arresting activists without search warrants in the middle of the night.

Even if the criminal justice does not facilitate liberation, we must still resist.

Q: What are some creative tactics in resistance movements?

A: @joshuawongcf I am very happy to share activist tactics. Hard to go to the street doing coronvavirus. Massive digital protest under Animal Crossing, so much that it has been banned in China.

BLM, HK, even Thailand and Belarus has shared a lot of protest tactics.

E.g. Telegram chats - encrypted and anonymized, frontline information, can adjust strategy quickly on the fly, even if lots of police there, overall tech has helped social movements and connections.

HK is a special society. 3 years ago, few HKers used Twitter. But mobilization on Twitter has been significant with this movement. Each day on Telegram channel, we receive a list of essential tweets. A very popular hashtag is #save12hkyouths - strong discursive power.

Gives empowerment to mass public who cannot serve on the forefront. Points to decentralization of protest movement, to facilitate the principle of "Be Water".

Same Q for @OsopePatrisse on creativity.

A: I'm an artist, as well as an activist. Black activists in particular are using art to communicate what they see, what they imagine in the future.

The Black arts movement has always been such a critical force in organizing.

Young Black TikTok users have been getting convo going through a new medium. There's a big reason why Trump doesn't want ppl to use TikTok in US.

*Patrisse points out there is a troll in the chat lol*

Art and creativity a central principle.

Had a piece called "fuck white supremacy, let's get free" in response to images of caged babies at the US-Mexico border.

When we get together, we can imagine more freely. 200 of us did a socially distance gathering in parking lot.

Q: How do you feel day to day with all of these pressures, why do you keep doing what you do?

A: @joshuawongcf compared to the loss of my teammates and friends already locked up for 6-10 years or secret detention, the price I pay is piece of cake.

Action as a solution to crisis is needed to cause change. I have confidence that change will come as people awaken to political, social, racial, economic injustice all over.

They cannot force people to be silent.

Q: What do you want to ask each other?

A: @joshuawongcf Engaging in social movement means a lot of sacrifice, how can you get a balance between family and personal and the work?

@OsopePatrisse: This question you're asking me is something I'm asking since I was 16 years old.

The work of ending systems and rebuilding new systems is lifelong work. It is so important that you find time for joy, for pleasure, for your community, family, friends.

7 years ago when we started BLM, I didn't make much time for these things. But while we inspired a lot of people, I wasn't taking care of my health, my friendships, my family.

This time still connected to family and community - that's who I'm fighting for!

You're 24, you have time to construct a new way of being. You might feel its impossible, but the work of building community is ALSO the work of revolution.

Q: I'm curious what you see - 10 years from now - whats most important to you and your comrades?

A: @joshuawongcf I love your sharing that building community and revolution/protests - that is not mutual exclusive. Community is our base for our long-term battle.

10 years later, I may face a similar situation to you. I wish Hong Kong can be a place where people decide their future. Where upper class elites, red capital tycoons, those who uphold power and never respect voice of people no longer control.

System's use of violence by police force, creating lots of other problems. Beating up homeless people, sexual violence, not just related to protests. We need to do a better job of understanding this.

Millenials, next Gen, even more dedicated to movement.

Must resist state violence and police brutality, watching the Taylor cases today.

Despite movements to defund police, in HK they are increasing budgets, already turning into police state. I wish one day we could also have the chance to vote.

Q: Do either of you see a connection between the forces you are resisting? White supremacy, authoritarianism, etc.

A: @joshuawongcf connect b/w Taylor case and HK is simple - ppl are losing faith in the criminal justice system if it continues to neglect those abused by state.

Victims deserve better, we deserve better. Justice is the only way to bring peace to our communities.

Racial justice movement in US is much longer than democratic movement in HK, context is diff, but we want to think about common values.

Having a vote is only the *first step* - how to push social justice and equality and those things that we matter is still a long term fight.

@OsopePatrisse patriarchy also has an enormous role in facilitating authoritarian system. The idea that the iron fist is the why that you socialize a culture, that a punitive way of being towards human beings is the way.

Power isn't *inherently* bad. It's how we use and relate to power. All of us have power.

Its the power that is used against human beings so we are restricted, cant get our needs met, power that manipulates populations, that prevents us for seeing each other as human.

Want us to build power in a way of mutual reciprocity, and how we are as human beings together. Need to differentiate how power is used.

Q (from audience): Apart from protest, how do we start?

A: @joshuawongcf pay attention to protesters in other parts of the world. It is of significant benefit to you, especially when you feel it is hopeless and defeated. There are always things to learn.

For me, under the national security law, even joining this very conversation may be violating the law.

If you face difficulties for ideas domestically, look to other activism on other parts of the world, it may inspire you.

@OsopePatrisse Join something. Revolution doesn't happen on social media. Join an organization, join a collective, join what you are passionate about. What do you want to change?

Voter suppression, police terror, change to criminal justice system, climate change. Show up for it.

@joshuawongcf: It's necessary to pay attention to protests around the world, Belarus, Thailand, HK, US, what are the universal values we all cherish? When we talk about international collaboration, you think political leaders, trade, etc.

In the new era, we can facilitate connections between street activism. We may or may not be the ones elected, or elites, but we have so much to contribute. We must all join in the fight.

*That's the end. Thanks for a reading. Great event and discussion. Amazing mutual respect between activists. Great facilitation from @baratunde. Gives me a lot of hope.*