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Extradition September hearing Day 11 (or 13 with Covid days)
Joined video link & waiting to cross to court.
Yesterday we heard from the main Defence medical witness Prof M. Kopelman whose testimony that JA suffers from clinical depression and is likely to kill himself if
Joined video link & waiting to cross to court.
Yesterday we heard from the main Defence medical witness Prof M. Kopelman whose testimony that JA suffers from clinical depression and is likely to kill himself if
.. extradited, was contested by the Prosecution who attempted to discredit his opinion by alleging bias, an error in judgement thru omission, & a mistaken premise regarding conditions in US prisons as well as the likely severity of his sentence.
Kopelman informed Lewis’ that given he is aware Lewis had intended to secure K as a witness for the Prosecution, his attempts to discredit the reliability of K’s opinion rang somewhat hollow, that a lawyer cannot use psychiatric diagnostic guidelines like a cookbook,
.. and that it is not for Kopelman to prove the true conditions in US prisons but drew Lewis’s attention to his decades of experience, incl as an expert witness in extradition trials, and that in his experience most US prison experts would not concur with Kromberg, pointing to
.. prior decisions such as that in the case of Laurie Love.
There is a sheet of paper everyone in court is reading.. wondering what it might be.
Perhaps it’s that schedule the judge has been asking for.
Glimpse in the corner of JA being brought in. Fitzgerald now talking to JA
Fitzgerald showing judge the adjudication sheet on the finding of the razor blade, as promised yesterday when the truthfulness of the incident was questioned.
There is a charge sheet, the outcome of which has to be provided - audio kept dropping out so unsure if this relates to the razor incident.
First witness today, another psychiatrist Quinton Deeley, who specialises in autism & ADHD. He has diagnosed JA with Asperger syndrome.
First witness today, another psychiatrist Quinton Deeley, who specialises in autism & ADHD. He has diagnosed JA with Asperger syndrome.
Deeley’s report includes the symptoms he observed & notes of consultations with JA, including concerns about the circumstances of Joshua Schulte.
Discussing medication & the diagnosis. Deeley also spoke to JA’s mother about him as a child, and S. Dreyfus regarding his years as a young adult.
Deeley says JA is highly intelligent & has a similar ability to comprehend & analyse systems as top scientists have.
Deeley confirms he has also found JA to be depressed & at risk of suicide if extradited would be high.
Deeley is young and highly articulate.
Discusses Aspergers tendencies coupled with depression would make his situation unbearable.
Deeley citing a report showing the high percentage of prisoners in solitary in the US committing suicide.
Lewis: would like him to sit but this witness also prefers to stand.
Tells Lewis that a neuropsychiatrist is a general adult psychiatrist & he sees a wide range of disorders, including people who are in & out of prison.
Lewis asks him how often he goes to prison. Replies 1-5
Tells Lewis that a neuropsychiatrist is a general adult psychiatrist & he sees a wide range of disorders, including people who are in & out of prison.
Lewis asks him how often he goes to prison. Replies 1-5
times a year.
Lewis says all the psychiatrists agree JA is depressed so he will concentrate on Deeley’s diagnosis if Aspergers.
They discuss how this manifests in childhood.
Lewis says all the psychiatrists agree JA is depressed so he will concentrate on Deeley’s diagnosis if Aspergers.
They discuss how this manifests in childhood.
Lewis quoting the guidelines & Deeley pointing out where they have changed. Regarding the test for Aspergers, Deeley agrees JA refused to answer questions (about daily personal routine because he found it demeaning explains Deeley).
Lewis again referring to the diagnostic guidelines about the number of traits required for a diagnosis, Deeley explains it also depends on the severity of a trait & the extent to which it affects function.
Playing a couple of extracts of JA at the Frontline Club. The issue is how articulate he is. They want to make sure the journos can see it but no, so Lewis goes on to discuss the JA Show for RT. Deeley says when JA is talking about a topic he is interested in & knowledgeable
.. he has no trouble discussing the issues at length as do all highly intellectual people, but hopeless at chit chat, or mundane topics.
Lewis says he is confused by this.
Lewis insists on an objective opinion, so if there is evidence that shows the opposite to a trait he has
Lewis says he is confused by this.
Lewis insists on an objective opinion, so if there is evidence that shows the opposite to a trait he has
Observed.. such as difficulty conducting conversation, why hasn’t he taken it into account? Lewis has failed to understand something fairly straightforward. Now we are seeing JA speaking on video to an audience at length..
.. audience member asks JA about the difference between an informant & an informant once removed .. JA answers saying we are only obliged to protect them from unjust retribution, but not if they have sold people etc
Lewis challenges Deeley about JA’s communication skills..
Lewis challenges Deeley about JA’s communication skills..
& Deeley replies JA is speaking about topics he is familiar with, in monologue, but that is quite different to sustaining a conversation.
Lewis reading at length from notes on observations of JA’s behaviour by other doctors (amounting to a conclusion JA is fine) Deeley says when you judge quality of eye contact in a formal interview it is not necessarily going to correlate to eye contact in general socialbehaviour
Deeley continuing to give very calm comprehensive answers about what was excluded from his report while Lewis attempts to elicit a simpler answer that would discredit his previous judgement but this is proving unsuccessful. S. Dreyfus being quoted again about long term friends
of JA & allowances they make for the special/different attributes of JA. Lewis again asks if Dreyfus is a medico & he explains when doing useful collateral interviews, it is standard practice to talk to non medical people.
Lewis asks about JA ability in having had 5 children & picks up on JA’s mothers comment that he is a dedicated extraordinary father & Deeley says it’s not unusual for people with the disorder to have a heightened sense of duty.
Someone on the spectrum can be dutiful, principled & have acute higher order function but in social situations demonstrate qualitative extraordinary, odd behaviour.
Lewis asks him does Deeley’s avoidance of eye contact with Lewis prove Deeley is autistic. (He answers this well..
Lewis asks him does Deeley’s avoidance of eye contact with Lewis prove Deeley is autistic. (He answers this well..
.. but he could have said there is no point looking at you because you are looking down & furiously turning pages while I’m trying to speak)
Me: you have to admire the restraint of this witness & his capacity to articulate very lucid responses despite a persistent wooden cross examination showing not only the usual attempt to elicit a different response but it appears a failure to actually comprehend the answers.
Me: to be fair, Lewis may be feigning not understanding.
Deeley reiterating JA is a high suicide risk & he believes would attempt to take his life ie not just a higher than normal risk in his age group in the male population as Lewis asked.
Short break before Fitzgerald re examines Deeley.
Fitzgerald said there is no witness for this afternoon & the judge has asked for on to be organised. It seems the 2 days lost in the non-Covid event has resulted not only in the loss of 2 days, but in a slowing down as witnesses
Fitzgerald said there is no witness for this afternoon & the judge has asked for on to be organised. It seems the 2 days lost in the non-Covid event has resulted not only in the loss of 2 days, but in a slowing down as witnesses
.. cannot necessarily reschedule to accommodate the court’s timetable.
Stella, Jennifer and Gareth interacting. No sound. I have wondered who the cluster of people sitting in the court to the left of the JA group (Stella, Kristinn, Joseph, Jennifer & one other), but now Lewis is seated with them & conferring with them during the break.
Fitzgerald: confirms Deeley interviewed JA for 6+2 hours but the diagnosis was also based on the results of a test for this disorder conducted by someone else. Adds that characteristics of autism appear in informal social situations rather than structured situations (apropos the
.. video clip). Deeley provides examples of his eccentric behaviour described by JA’s long time friend S Dreyfus, saying it is typical for Aspergers. Also, he can’t handle small talk - talk about football or the weather (me: what a relief)
Deeley talking about the uninterrupted monologue on a topic he is an expert about (video clip) being typical. Deeley elaborating on eye contact modulation as a yardstick. Dreyfus described the difference between arrogance & blindness. (Me: this is where comments of Guardian
journos & a judge that he is a “narcissist” fit in - I think the same error in reading JA has been made)
The judge seems to be listening intently. This witness is very compelling, giving some extraordinary examples of autistic behaviour, from childhood through adulthood. It describes what is both brilliant and special about Julian (recognised by many of us).
Interesting details about JA’s life revealed, such as his grandmother (on his mother’s side) isolated herself in her room & studied Latin (remembering what was expected of women of her generation).
Deeley is finished.
Judge is complaining that there are too many people in court for the social distancing requirement of 3 meters apart so the extra people need to go to the overspill court next door... she made reference to the JA contingent, saying only lawyers associated
Judge is complaining that there are too many people in court for the social distancing requirement of 3 meters apart so the extra people need to go to the overspill court next door... she made reference to the JA contingent, saying only lawyers associated
.. directly with the case should be in court.
Fitzgerald informs the judge that they are trying to get all the witnesses done by Friday next week but they may not be able to include the Prosecution & Defence final summaries.
Back in court. Stella & Kristinn are not in their regular seats. Perhaps have had to go next door, as per the judge’s remarks. The other bank of seats to their left where what seem to be the Prosecution’s troops are sitting, is a larger bank.. seems rather unfair.
Prosecution witness, Prof Seena Fazel, Oxford uni - a forensic psychiatrist ie expertise with prisoners, visits prisons fortnightly.
Lewis: you specialise in prisoner suicides, you’re a world expert, published papers in medical journals, written a training course for psychiatrists. Picture froze, sound dropping out
Fazel: high risk means more than the gen population in that age group. You can’t anticipate future risk with any certainty - you need to do a reassessment at that time.
Fazel: suicide is a rare outcome, JA can manage his risk - found the Samaritans, takes medication - not consistent with severe depression where he can’t resist suicide.
