As a mauler fan, i will watch this and give you an honestly review...

but you're not looking good, IMO https://twitter.com/TheGoldMan25/status/1307726433092018181

Okay, just from the beginning, i have an issue; why use supplementary material?

I know it's 'canon' but honestly it's a bad idea to ever use it; I like how you leave near the end, but... still, you should not have to do homework to watch a movie

Oh just caught that part... Well, look the canon is fine, but still; i think the point stands that people don't care about the broader canon (Or at least, most don't) and it hasn't had that big an impact...

Also, i disagree; you shouldn't reference the next movies in the triology. Keep it to one movie, as it would probably be a better help so show the character's consistency over time as you make call backs...

Also, good on you! I like how you're willing to hear critsism!

We need more of that, and i hope this tread will be informative to you.

As a history professor (in-training) , i will doc you points on wikipedia, however your description is a bit quick; i understand why tho, and i won't fault you there. I will, however, post a like to the tv tropes
page https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Okay, good job on the superman point. that's always important to note, and i look forewards to you... trying to justify things later on...

Also silver age superman could make himself japanese... as you brought up shape-shifting i should point that out and mention that it could-

happen with sufficent explination... proabbly shouldn't, but...

Okay i'm having issues with your point here about adding powers to the force over time; See these are all logical extentions form the previous one; force choke is telekenisis, luke's super jump means that moving in a burst of speed is possible, etc....

Also, note how the ones in the sequels are far bigger gaps in logic then the previous entries; why isn't the projection technique used more often? Stopping a blaster bolt would have helped in the Clone Wars...

Don't even get me started on force healing...

Okay for a while there i was agreeing with you... and then you said CM wasn't a mary sue...

i'm like... dude, the example you made is a textbook one....

... Wow you're throwing that good will away FAST ain't ya?

No, mary sue is not sexists. there is no double standard; you even use the term for male Sues...

don't do this. I would cut this part out. Those four are mary sues. This is a SW thread and you do NOT want to go for KORA

For men; Kirito from SAO comes to mind quickly. but no, i think it's because those get caught in films with far, far bigger problems...

Anyone on this thread; comment your own! If you think you know one, put it here.

Thank god you didn't do the 'why is it okay when X is a sue?!" shit, because then i'd be 100% times angrier against you.

Okay, we're gonna start for the force awakens section.

It's the strongest ST story... the foundation... and as Mauler's series will show... it's got a lot...

of problems...

Also, you're very very sure you can disprove the arguments... so let's dive in, shall we?

So first thigns first; yes the intro helps establish who rey is... and i guess who she will be by the end. They're her best scenes in the triology IMO...w hich sets the bar low for me...

Also yes, ofcourse the openings are similar... the critisim of the "copy of NH" is a thing

Also luke really is not... if you go that route I will lose any respect for you. Not a threat i know, but still... for shame...

Also good point to raise up; Luke i can buy knowing to fix up droids; the fact they buy them from jawas shows that tehy used them before/have uses for them...

Why DOES ray know to do this. I could buy her fixing the speeder, but why a BB unit?

Yeah you're right, we can infer... but a rifle is useful for a farmhand; to stop the Sand people for example, who aren't precise... why a staff? she's not gonna get training for it...

Because she's living with scavengers she should be equal to the thugs; being one herself

Personally i would have gone with her using her agility against them 9after all force reflexes....) but that's just me. A staff is a simple weapon, so i suppose it makes sense, but she's not a kung-fu master with it yet...

So look on her mechanical skill... she would know how much a part is worth; that much i will give you. maybe she can infer from that with the force... but she calls the falcon a junk pile, like luke did so i would assume she doesn't know much about it and wonders why he keeps it.

Yes, she learned from him but... Look logically what she would learn from him would make her a good SCRAPPER; she's good at collecting valuable junk... and that's it. He also had no qualls about strong arming her, so it's in his best interests to NOT train her to fight.

and to make sure she doesn't get silly ideas (Like say, leaving the planet) he probably woulnd't train her to fly a ship or engineer/fix one up in the first place...

She would have combat experience... against her fellow thirsty thungs.

Not exactly military....

HER FLAW IS HER PARENTS?!

Okay... Okay... that's just funny. given the first and second movie say that they're not important...

Plus... how is being concered for her parent's well being a flaw?

"It shows us rather then tells us...."

What the hell man, do you think we're stupid?

External validation too?

Wow... "I need to show you how good i am! Look at my might! NOTICE ME!!!"

So, those scenes you mention show that she wants to go on an adventure, however, she sees it as her repsonisbility to wait for her parents...

I'd argue this isn't a flaw, more her being torn by two options...

... no.

nonono...

That is not a bigger flaw then anythign Anakin or Luke Had.

Why would you...

How could you...

Okay, So luke's flaws are that he's hasty, hot-headed, a bit of a defeatist, and fights to keep away from his temper...

Anakin is anxious, also rushing into things, overconfident, and unfetted, and power hungry...

Rey... wants the attention of father figures and validation...

Which is lready a part of the SW family... but her version is ALL SHE HAS?!

Understanding droid is fine; FINN understands them, and surely some droids would be there on Jakku...

It's not her engineering that let's her do that (See above) but something most people can accept....

"yeah it's weird how rey can speak wookie, but han did it in his movie"

both are bad, so what?

Oh boy double standards again... let's see your examples!

KID ANAKIN?! WHAT! PEOPLE QUESTIONED THAT!

OF CORUSE LEIA WOULD KNOW HOW TO! SHE"S IN THE REBELION!

PADME IS DISGUSED AS THE QUEEN"S BODY GUARD!

YOUR EXAMPLES ARE IDIOTIC!

LUKE SAYS HE KNOWS HOW TO PILOT! HE WANTED TO BE ONE!

It acutally might if she did. Like she mentions "I learned as i went... eventually they left me alone" as it's SOME cover...

YEAH WE SEE THAT SHE CAN FIGHT DEHYDRATED THUGS AT AN EQUAL LEVEL! not a wannabe sith lord who's been trained by luke and Snoke/Palaptine!

This is like saying i can take on bruce lee with my mall tae qon do skill! There's not a comparison here!

Leia is a princess... in the rebellion and as she knows important information defending herself is important...

Padme was her own bodyguard...

They are informed. Show, dont' tell... a-are you tooling with us?

Oh THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT.

HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING THIS?!

Well, i can see why people would; he's a storm trooper who was sent to go and murder a village of innoccents.

You'd think he would be better then that!

I'd agree he wouldn't have beaten her up... but i would have had him try to slow her down and give her a decent coutner so he wouldn't be thrown down is all...

also no you woulnd't mate... I doubt i would, in fact you'd proabbly just piss tyson off...

To clarify... i think it's bad, don't minsuderstand me, as far as points go but.... i mean a case can be made for why people have issue.

Wait too trusting?

You know Finn is trustworthy (and proves it) right now. She just doesn't know the whole situation...

Ah the Myth line...

She knows han. and while she knows who the jedi ARE that doesn't mean she can pull it off.

because that needs training.

As a former Mall 'do kid, i can tell you without irony that seeing someone do something doesn't not mean you can do it yourself.

I think i was very fair in explaining why she wouldn't know how to fly...

And my point is still a counter here.

I'm not sure what else to say... your point here is based on faulty logic...

She does, but not for that ship, and she's never been off planet....

What, no i can't logicly infer that; i can take a car a part and sell the scraps...

I can't peice it back togther and make it work!

And a space ship would be way more complex!

Your example DOESN"T work, both are differnt skillsets!

Being a fan of cod doesn't make you good, but it's reasonable you could be.

Being able to know what parts are valuable doesn't translate into being able to fix things!

I disagree... and besides, why have your scavenger LEAVE and stop being of use?

Yeah.. how does she know so much, given she knows enough to make guesses but not that it's the falcon?

Hmm... I think you discovered another problem! On Accident!

I will allow her some basic piloting skills... after a point if she says she flew before...

BUt never past atmosphere..

My complaints came before that line, i don't like it, btu this is a weak point.

It was a paniced take off...

It was fine until she was manuvering like a god...

*Sigh*

I take it back; you're doing this "BUT WHAT ABOUT LUKEY AND ANNIE!!!!!!!" shit.

Luke had experience, it was weak in the first one, but he proves himself. Anakin is also critized for it as a child out of universe.

I'm gonna say this here; but don't do this.

You're not syaing rey here, you're adding luke and anakin as casulaties; talk about rey. You're dragging the others to her level thinking you're raising her up.

Because if they agree with you on them... well, what makes rey better?

She's equally as much of a fuck up then, you fuck up!

Also for luke... he had the force, it was all or nothing on that one shot. He might have a weak excuse... but he's nothing compared to rey.

Stop. DRAGING them to rey's level. BEing equal to shit is still shit.

Kid anakin was mocked RELENTLESSLY FOR THIS.

WHO. THE FUCK. ARE YOU. PREACHING TO?!

"For most os this fight she's flying in feilds of sand"

Shows the wreckage of Star destoryers...

C'mon man!

You did that to luke and anakin you dumbass...

you're not getting any slack for it.

"This is the only time in this trilogy in the last jedi we see her fly in comabt."

Correct me if i'm wrong... but uh... wasn't she in it during the battle of Crait?

Ah okay...

and still... she really is an amazing Piolet from the standards of desert-born scavangers who really shouldn't know how to fly a ship...

Yeah i'll let the saving of finn slide....

And my point stands; WHY does she know how to fix the problem.

In fact it would be a flaw to have her not know how to but to stumble about trying to fix it...

But the world she was on gives me no reason to beliie she COULD despite your insistance!

Oh my god i hope you stop repeating yourself...

And peopel accuse mauler of it...

She told the droid she just met that...

Okay then... i don't think this point bears repeating or note but... alright...

Not instantly.. but Han warmed up in a short time frame... you know, going to the Cantina...

Instantly is misused a lot so i can see the confusion....

I know this is about rey but god damn is finn treated like a peice of shit in this movie...

Okay i'm gonna be blunt; mary sues will have some consequences to thie ractions, at times, depends on the author really. However, the Rathtar scene has a flaw, in that there's no real long term consequences to letting him out.

In fact it seems to just be there to add tension

You don't know this

Well... like i said, it did work out well enough. It's like the Rathtars were only important to one scene...

They were used and left behind... Like REY!

Ok Chewie got shot... I mean that only applies to the fight at the Cantina, but again, no long term conseqeunces.

After all, fin is still alive and the Cantina comes directly after.

Yeah saving fin is a reach, i will be the first to think that.

But i think it's more she's pushed a lot of people's buttons beforehand.

*Sigh* Okay, i'm willing to assume that Rey has the reflexes to do this, as we see it in Luke an Anakin. I don't have a probelm with it...

Baby Yoda, on the other hand... it comes with a cost, it tires the little dude out.

And the Rodian baby... yeah i don't like it. now what?

No seriously, what's your counter if they have problems with them?

Also it's shown that the weight of the creature has an impact; poor Byoda seemed to use up an aweful lot of evergyl. Yoda had to lift a pillar and it took effort!

Like, it seems while strong in the force... it still has consequnces for them, limits...

And in TLJ... you know...

Why doesn't Han seems to use the compressor then? He knows about it... it seems awefully important....

and why didn't HE notice it like, immdeitly

Why didn't SHE remove it?!

"Rey's big problem is that she doesn't know just how special she really is..."

HAHAHAH! That's TEXTBOOK mary sue! This is... this is hilarious... 39;10... That's the funniest part so far!

This is a common wish fulfilment trope; The ugly duckling learning she was always a Swan... expect in this case it's a scavenger discovering she's the most powerful force user ever to live...

This is seriously hilarious....

I will grant it... but it is Awefully quick... this is, what, an mintue or so after proving herself, somewhat?

but i feel generous...

Not the point; they don't know one another that well... certainly not enough to trust her with a gun...

it's weird really

"yeah you pull the trigger."

I have shot guns before; hunter.

The recoil is something. And she will later kill three ST (Who were brainwashed as children to be ruthless killers) without a sweat... i wouldn't use this. Luke at least knew how to use a rifle...

I like how you defend it really; "Lol, the perfect Mary Sue can't use a gun" when i JUST know that you'll need to defend something else... lovely

She forgot to turn off the safety... then shoots three people with ease.

Dude... stop... please...

Yeah we don't know... why did it.

The force usually doesn't make calls like this. this is the first time we see a vision like this...

You uh.. gonna mention that?

No it didn't you even agree with me on that...

also we see the events...it is a terrible argument... it's just silly

Well Mauler brings it up... this whole scene with Maz is to tell rey to stop worrying about her parents...

only for the next to films to show she keeps worrying about her parents...

It's really not important... And it's still not a flaw... like wow...

A darkside relashion that was only in TLJ...

Oh my god... this is so tedious...

Why are you going in the reverse? it only shows how poorly planned this triology was given the anwsers seem to be mized up!

"I don't understand how someone can watch this scene and think she's a mary sue"

*Points to thread* Jesus Chirst man... A few scenes can only do so much....

I can say this as a man who read a lot of stories written by teenage girls when he was twealve... there's always a rejection, a "WHY CAN"T I BE NORMAL!" Part... before she still kicks ass...

and running away there was Rey's...

"ONLY THREE PEOPLE!"

Three Storm Troopers... all of which are programed from birth, armed with rifles...

and she's alone...

WHat the hell are you doing?! I saw it coming but you need to stop!

YES. A gun is simple, but the recoil and everyhtign (She's even firing it ONE HANDED, which hurts like a BITCH) and the fact she kills time... don't! You can't do this!

Yes they did... in tight corridors, armed with rifles, which both were capable of using. YOU MADE IT CLEAR SHE HASN"T SHOT ANYONE BEFORE! YOU EVEN SHOWED US LUKE HAD THE RIFLE FOR AN EXAMPLE!

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING!

"You keep wondering why i keep brinign up other characters... well it's because the others aren't calle dsues depsite rey being called one."

Kid Anakin has been called one. Older Anakin and Luke have clear flaws.

Stop doing this. You're not helping Rey.

I'm done with you; you're another dumbass who tries to defend rey, igonres the context, and tries to dragon down all of starwars in the misguided sense you can help make rey look better.

it's not a double standard; you're just a picky little bitch

YEAH AM ANGRY!

I've dealt with this shit since TLJ, WE're STILL DOING THIS!

AND I"M 46 mintues in! I"M NOT EVEN HALF WAY DONE!

You don't read a lot of sues... Running away from Kylo is to build him up, sometimes, sues can get scratched...

but they always recover, and always kick the ass of the meanie...

Also... you know she recuses herself, right?

(Shakes head) This is just so mind boggling... I want to get this down by 4:30, my time... but seriously...

EMotional vunerability is a sue flaw... because like Korra, or the others, the moment she encouters her flaws, isntea do working on them, or being chewed out... she's comforted. "Shh, sweet baby, no..."

"At the time of the Force awakens" Stay away from ROSW; like i said, you should have went in order from the perspective of a view of these for the first time.

There's no reason she could resist him; that should take skill... fuck even reading his mind is stronger...

I knew you would bring up the Dyad... which was made up in ROSW...

Now i have my issues with the concept but this doesn't imply connection to me, it implies rey's power as compared to him. if anythign i'm reminded of Vader and Luke...

We were told Snoke put it in there... and given how Palpy didn't know about it, while snoke said to build a connection...

that was a retcon, a movie goer might assume it to have been forshaodwing but Rian explains snoke connected them...

this doens't make any sense...

He keeps going on about it, but i want to wait until episode 9 to talk about it...

"If you want to say her getting too strong because of the dyad is a flaw you're free to argue that."

Oh well thank you!

"But if you say it breaks the alws of"

No it's really fucked up, we're done here, the fact you defend it and so poorly at that makes me angry...

The Dyad was RETROACTIVLY added.

It's not exactly good foreshadowing. Like, at least Vader being luke's father has something you could squint at, but we're getting two seperate explinations for this one scene in two different movies so please STOP

Oh my god...

EVen if you know this, it's hard to do. it's not alike... why... the mind trick is the hardest thing. Even LUKE only did the mind trick in Jabba's palace...

Why... WHY.

Almost to the first hour... c'mon matt you can do it...

Don't use the scene with Cade Bane! That was twohighly trained masters (and anakin) trying to get somehting from his mind. IT ALMOST KILLED HIM> and Ashoka was there watching, not doing, because she's not TRAINED to do it...

As the video goes on and on he ets sillier and sillier

"It's not like Luke trained for the MInd trick! expect for the time skip-"

DO YOU LISTEN TO YOURSELF?!

I thought luke went back for training with Yoda in the time, but even if he didn't he has a force ghost! plus given Yoda's routine, he has an idea of what to do...

where do you people come from?

No i'm not gonna say the climb scene is an example; we know she can do it, it makes sense... In fact i'd argue it's one of the few things that isn't a result of Sue...

Okay I agree I like that moment as well... it's nice, Finn and Rey show their bond (even if it's a bit weak) it's... probably among the better parts of the film I think. You do a good job here, I will admit.

A Shame TLJ and ROSW will ruin it by your own logic...

And her surpise makes it worse; now your point of her knowing it from the stories is called inot questions, as Yoda would say "Do or do not" and well... if you doubnt you could do something that is probably not good for the force...

55:00... Time for the Kylo fight.

People complain about Mauler's length...

Okay you start off by stacking the deck against Rey...

This will be fun.

:The Bowcaster Wound"

Pain is a scource of power for the darkside. Anger is a scource of power for the dark side...

And the emotional turmoil of killing his father? He's joshed on that Dark side.

Also it launched a few storm troopers and Kylo... didn't even react, like he'd been shot with a bb... sure it hurts, but not debilitating ly.

You would help your point so much by not talking about this...

Kylo is fighitng trhough pain that woud put obi-wan down. While i think he's a bit of a villan sue, the fact Rey beats him... is getting sillier just from YOU!

Force pull is common, but it takes effort... and Kylo was pulling, someone who is, objectivly as far as the auidence could gather, stronger... this is why people assumed rey to have a powerful lineage...

"the light saber is moving faster then kylo anticipated."

I don't think this is working mate...

"LEt's look at rey's life."

She's a malnousished orpahn girl living in on a desert.

HEr comabt experience would be of equally hungry, thirsty idiots.

As any person woudl tell you; a trained fighter is only unpreapred against an untrained one 9Which rey is) -

Because they don't know what idiocy they expect to see.

Plus... Why didn't kylo use the force on her?

That's a major boon and she's still learning it...

Instead of saying she's on the defensive, i would try to make the point that she's running away and only barely survives.

because, you know... it would make her less of a Mary sue? The way you phrase it makes her far more skilled.

You can survive being disarmed, and while he wants her alive... well, eaiser ways to do that then lightsaber combat.

SNOKE in TLJ points this out, i should add...

What, if you can do it , so can i!

Kylo still lost that fight.

Also, HOUR MARK!

JUST ANOTHER HOUR AND A HALF 2 go!

Oh no... he's headcanoning shit now...

1:00:20

This is gonna suck...

This line... This line is my only response to it...

"SHE INSTANTLY SKYROCKETS!"

THAT"S A PROBLEM! OH DEAR LORD!!!

THE FIGHT GIVE HIM ONE HELL OF AN OUTLET FOR THAT!

... I-I see why Mauler has friends to efap with because i need them... it would make this so much more bearable...

KINDA WEIRD FOR A SDARKSIDE USER TO FEEL WEAKER AFTER KILLING SOMEONE WITH AN EMOTIONAL CONNECTION!

It's not like there's a famous part of the Darkside lore that teaches that...

So uh... i get your point about Leia, I really do... but uh...

Why is there a counter attack on the Resistence base now?

How did she know that?

Because Losing Star Killer should be crippling; they aren't a glaatic power yet; the FO should be terroists who got really lucky

but this video isn't about that..

At the last jedi now... At least it should be short.

"LUKE DOESN"T LIKE HER SO SHE'S NOT A SUE!"

... 1:05:00... How do i explain this...

He comes around, the subplot tries to make a parallel to Luke and Yoda here...

Difference is Luke could have done something

She's reapeating his arch... but this time Rey is in the right (mostly)

And again, the external validation can be seen as "Luke daddy, i'm special! PAY ATTENTION TO ME DADDy!"

*Beat*

Daddy issues are common among mary sues... because of the Fan fiction thing but...

It would be cool if we saw that tree and island in the TFA...

Like your point with Luke here is interesting, but it's not really important.

"mary sues are never afraid and never need help"

Not nessesarily; we see that... well she really didn't need that much help later on.

Plus, just because she is said and feels afraid doesn't mean she doesn't overcome it. That's called courage.

Which is a virtue common to fool-hardy sues.

Again there's a lot fo variance to the Ma-Rey-Sue that if you keep a strict following to one interpretation of it yoy miss

"he teaches her three lessons, we only see two"

And the lessons are really bad at the point he's tring to make...

but again, focus on the ma-rey-sue...

No the bond is not about the sueness... it's weird, and i've seen soemthing like it in bad fanfics (That all seem to involve the sue getting into a bad boys pants in fantasy-like settings) but it's werid compared to other force powers... not impossible i don't think but odd.

Is it bad acting the line she said about how kylo will kill them all.. or is it rehersed...

IDK, IDC.

But why wouldn't she belivie that; she's almost been killed by him twice...

he's not exactly mentally sound...

"Rey doesn't understand the force. She always tapped into it but-"

Then she shouldn't be able to do any of this stuff.

Luke had to learn about the force from Obi and Yoda,

Anakin's powers only came up later after a big timeskip.

Also Naiviety is a common mary sue 'flaw' "Look at her! She's so nice that she doesn' realize the bear is gonna maul her to death!" and all that (Not form anything, just an example)

Flaws that serve to empahsis thier virtues as well are... kinda bad without help from others.

other such faux flaws include stubborn (because she is always right) Foolhardiness and overconfidence (Because she will win either waty, or get out of it) and the others discussed above.

And the examples you bring up show why; no long term consequences, just moments that she manages to escape from eaisly.

"There is no way the orignal mary sue from St would be navie"

I mean... We're not talking about her. Tropes are like memes (in the dawkins sense) they evolve over time, and with the sue it's more an infection.

"Is she really was a mary sue she would already understand the force"

We know she doesn't, but that's what makes her power so fucking amazing to people; she's better at things we've seen other jedi struggle with!

Yes it's not a power up, but you need training so use it, that's what ESB tries to teach luke; you need hard work and training in order to fully master it and use it properly.

Why do you think Yoda made luke run around dagobah? for kicks? it's clear there's a phsycial aspect.

"Rey's journey has very little to do with her strength in the force"

Why is she the force user then?

Also that doesn't explain her power... by your logic, shouldn't she be more like luke? Oh wait even he had to grow and learn...

Even then i'd argue luke is not the jedi in migh

t, but the truest sons of thier philsophy; which is why i hate this luke in TLJ but again, we're focused on the Ma-rey-sue.

Oh and now you're pulling out a book... I like books, might pick that one up but this isn't exactly a stellar intro to it...

Is this what Mauler parodied in his apirl fool's vid?

Want and need... that was mentioned in it... and here i thought it was just write... i gave him too little credit...

"If you look at Luke you see he struggles with the force"

I wonder why people like that more...

... and the things you used as her wants and needs are anwsered in EVERY SINGLE MOVIE! (A family and a need to move past her parents)

... Please stop with defending this... this is really bad... is this disney era luke?

Jesus christ... no wonder...

Oh yeah, that rain scene is good...

not sure how she could swim in water though... Rian is a master of little things that look cool, but well be contradictied the second he needs something..

Yeah that is weird... it's like they should be on different sides... I would attribute this to Rian fucking up more then anything. It's kinda clear he doesn't know what he's talking about with the force...

"She calls kylo a murderous snake, then in the next film-"

"heals a snake and kylo"

Except an animal isn't a murder... it's an animal... Now i do think Kylo is a rabid, mentally reanged animal, but that's just me... so i guess i must approve of the comparison

"Rey just want's to belivie kylo is just this evil person-"

Dude, he tried to kill her. Twice.

He tortured her.

I can't believive you're making me say this but she's competely correct here! He's not a nice person.

"But she doesn't know about his backstory yet"

Mate, she's got a tragic backstory, expect Kylo is suffering from the consequences of his own actions mostly. Backstory is not an excuse!

"she wants to belivie finn is in the resistence but he isn't"

he is know and he's her family... looks like she was kinda right...

"She wants to bleivie kylo is evil but he isn't"

See above; even with the backstory he's still kind of an asshole.

"It's a huge flaw, one a sue wouldn't posses"

... Are you aware of fandoms? Do you know how many people want to fuck Kylo, but know they have to use the "I can chang him mama' card...

They write mary sues... and i guess you're the target audience!

you even say kylo admits to being a monster...

Even he agrees with me!

"Kylo was called a monster his whole life, his parent shsipped him off to luke and luke tried to kill him"

One... no he wasn't called a monster his whole life. how would you infer that?

Luke's issues are another matter but again, it seems Kylo is a monster because of his-

Rampant Mental instability and insanity...

and that's it's a consequence of his actions.

"A mary sue would not be flustered by a shirtless kylo ren"

... i think the problem might be he's never read any fanfiction...

Literally. This is so common in them. Any fanfition, any fandom, you will find hundreds of scenes like this

Perfect examples of fnafiction teir sue writing...

Wow for once my life reading bad fanfics on the intertnet mean something!

See to me this sounds like Kylo trying to bring rey down to his level; saying his parents don't care for him and her's didn't for her, to break her ego... to bait her...

And Han and Leia would NEVER abadon family...

Until now...

"Kylo points out rey's flaw of wanting father to validate her"

It's a shame though, because she never really EARNS validation, she already has the power to earn it, they just need to see it...

"People have the audacity to watch this movie and say rey has no flaws."

... This thread.... i want it to be immortilized for this...

It's all so tiresome...

"If you're someone who says let the past die is the theme of the movie then you are something else."

Listen here; Kylo says it, but we see it in action; look at Luke. I think people are just pointing out the irony here that the film is right... and doesn't think it

And i don't belivie you; you called him a villian, but you were so sympathic to him right off the bat...

"The theme of infitiy war is that Thanos was right' is not the theme of infinity war"

No i think it's a part of the theme of "dsesperation leads to desperate moves' that the film has.

and well... thanos's plan did do as he hoped... the emotional cost was... wait Ma-rey-sue...

"one of the smalles tnitpicks is rey being able to swim-"

As you yourself point out, she's bever even seen rain. HOW IS SHE SWIMMING?!

and swimming in a caze is dangeorus... people down you know...

"Also she'd only die if she was panaic"

WHY ISN"T SHE?!

This is alien to her!

Okay the mirror scene was fine ish... i guess...

but going to kylo.. I dunno, i feel like my toruter would be the last person i talk to while i deal with my feelings of doubt...

Oh no... no the rey vs luke fight...

"Luke is literally toying with her"

At first, Rey escalated with the saber; one of the deadilest weapons in the galaxy.

SHE COULD HAVE KILLED LUKE SKYWALKER....

SHE COULD HAVE KILLED LUKE, MOTHERFUCKING, SKYWALKER.

let that sink in...

be amazed at the Ma-Rey Sue!

"if you use this scene, you are malipulating the movie to fit your agenda."

NO. No i'm not.

Rey might have lost her weapons, but why didn't luke do the Kylo manuver? She could have killed him their!

"One of the sexiest scenes in star wars"
... Oh no he's a reylo...

OH GOD.

WHAT IS THIS?!

"Rey isn't a mary Sue because snoke tricked her"

How funny the ambush allowed kylo to kill snoke and then they cleaned up the guards...

Luck lucky lucky... You're not supposed to notice plot armor.

But she's got one hell of a set... tier 12 plot armor...

Plus her main reasoning is proven to be sound; while kylo is a murderous dog, it's a murderous dog that still likes her, and helped her out, and would turn in ROSW...

this is dumb

"This is not something that woudl happen to a mary sue"

there are no long term consequences to rey's mind prode here. In fact it's solved realitivly quickly from this point.

"This would never happen to the mary sue from star trek"

maybe because of context?

"That's right, rey needed saving from kylo!"

Which is someone we've established she trueste.d.. meaning she was kinda right... about leaving...

Oh... i uh.. i don't think you understand...

"People say Rian had an agenda"

Usually in context to holdo... but okay.

I don't really care for this point.

The praetorian guard fight is weird; Shad has a good video on it, as does Robot Head, but i think the main complaint is that there's a lack of force use, and it's relaly inconsiquencal to the story.

it would have been cool to see if the guards injured rey or something

Or that knife didn't disappear.

It's the weridest fight in the series i think.

also again; lack of the force from both Kylo and Rey, it's mostly Sword fighting.

Gonna take a jog now, brb

So! Turns out it's raning...

I guess my last few chapters in the Nightlord seires of books will have to wait.

Yeah, i think the best part about the fight is no force users... but this would be good to showcase kylo and her using her powers, which i think is an important complaint.

Like even the parts you show her losign to one she... really could just force push them?

The force is a great tactical adavntage you know...

... he brought up the dyad again.

I'm glad they're stronger together but the problem here is that, as i said, not using the force.

And now onto the talk.

I really think this was an interesting part of the movie; i think it would be cooler if she took his hand. Subvert all our expectations... but of course not.

Let's hear what he has to say. 1:30:00

"People who say Kylo should have pulled it don't understand the Dyad?"

How could they? That's been a part of this since day one... how could they know about it? Even if i assume they see it again post ROSW it's not really something empathized here...

"Rey Failed."

... Kinda sorta?

Like she failed in her plan, but what she accomplished... well, she defeated Kylo, saw the light in him, and is willing to try again in the next movie...

So uh... it's a small loss...

"Goal one, bring luke back to the resistance."

Well... Luke came back for one battle... and the theme of "hope" means he borught it back for the few people there after rose got more killed.

"Bring Kylo back tot he light side"

She got a foot in the door...

Oh there's hope for you!

Yeah that shot with the tiefighter... I think it's there to be cool.

"I don't liek to use the force to explain everythign."

How much of your examples use the force?

I lost count...

The Rock scene...

Do you remember Yoda and luke needing the effort to lift a pillar and an X-wing, respectfully?

"Luke and rey are very differnt'

Yeah yeah, i disagree with you please get back to the rocks...

"Rey doesn't have that problem."

MA

REY

SUE.

Yoda had trouble in AOTC...

YODA. HAD TROUBLE...

"Size matters not"

I mean yes but Byoda, Yoda, and other force users show how... exsuaghting it is, how focused you need to be...

Like, maybe it would be better if she entered a coma, if she looked like she was so utterly focused but... this is the hardest thing to defend...

"Given that this is MY interpretation of the force i don't see it as ridiculous"

I am very happy for you. I genuinly am...

But while i understand that, please keep in mind it does present a problem either way.

I made it to rise of Skywalker...

Oh boy...

:I can excuse everything that happened by saying rey trained for a year"

A bit too late... and even then she shows a lot of power compared to, say, luke... then again it would be a problem if she was the exact same as she was before...

on the other hand she also loses to kylo..

Well, let's forget about that

Wait don't compare ESB to TLJ... because that scene we see Luke train, lift the X-wing... and the point he was too cocky and not finished.

Rey... was the precise amount of cocky... She has all her limbs for example...

"it's heavily implied he didn't go back"

Really? I mean you don't know that. i think it's clear he did, or had help from Ghost Obi-wan...

I dunno man, this seems week...

"people don't hold luke to rey-"

Luke IS the standard we hold her too!

and she's been found wanting.

STOP WITH THE DOUBLE STANDARD.

It's not apllicable!

"I will cover this movie the same way as the previous two"

Poorly?

"She fails at contacting the jedi"

While floating, with a ton of rocks around her in a nebula like she achivied the avatar state.

Really?

"Rey doesn't represent the force"

I have always thought that, she's far more of a Dark side character... but given the other movies it's werid to see this inclination... now...

" A Mary Sue liek rey wouldn't have hurt bb8"

Well she is forgiven by the bot and it's owners quickly enough...

"a Mary sue would not fail at a training course"

I feel this is where the comparision to korra grows stronger: it's not that she fails, it's that there's not a lot of consequences here, like when korra kept hitting her head against the obstical course in her show...

(I will admit i found that hilarious)

"I am not worthy of weilding this lightsaber"

Rey Says.

But Leia comforts her and says she is.

"she has no hope that she's the hope the galazy needs"

Again i think that validation is not a flaw...

Unless they do things stircly for it... liek say, sabatoging another person to get praise...

I think the fans of the sequels saw it as a regression for the same reason i have faults with it; she's kinda prove to be very capable, and while it failed, the conseqeunces are good.

So... did she really? it might not feel that way to others...

"She reads the jedi texts, which let her know how to do something else."

It's hard to learn how to do a martial art from a book, i'm just gonna say it. Like even if she knows force healing it should give her trouble... maybe the snake should have lashed out a bit

after all, it doesn't know she can do that.

I do like you pointing out the grenery and how she admires it.

... i think what frustrats me the most about works i consdier bad is the lost potenial...

I also like that your brought upt he puppet show.

Now if you ask me it's a bit late for it, but I do agree with you on it more or less...not a flaw, but it's somethig i can see her want... now if she was tempted with it... now that's something.

I also don't like the family name thing... i get that she would want to take luke's name, but its a bit on the nose... I would have saved it until the end honestly.

"Kylo is trying to distract her and she falls for it."

I mean yeah, that is the scene, but they escape fairly quickly and this ultimately helps her find Oochie's ship... So... i'm not sure if this counts. |

It's a njeat scene (The force moving objects around tho... is too much.

"A sure woulnd't reveal her wearabouts"

the Necklace did... not her, but welll...

I mean i know your point, she's rather rattled, but this does raise question on how force teleport works... eh, another topic.

"You'd think if she can sense the dagger's darkside aura, she could with the other lightsaber."

I mean to be fair evil runs in her blood; a child-killing lightsaber probably misses being held by child-killers

Jokes aside... yeah. good point.

Okay, force healing!

We saw it for baby Yoda, but i woudn't use it; healing is something you need to balance in universe...

"not every jedi can use every ability"

Okay, interesting point, i think that's fair, but I think the ulity of it would be standard.

"The other jedi didn't know about it."

Possible but why is it forgotten?

"Maybe they didn't want to teach it"

Dude...that power could save lives... that's what they do/

"Death is something that shouldn't be avoided."

They will still defend themselves!

"Ask questions about the world builfding!"

I like that... but this doesn't make sense WITH the WB!

"those who dont' critizie baby yoda have a double standard"

People did complain... and the timing is suspious...

I don't like it either but it could be cut so...

"Why isn't babby yoda a sue"

Because it knocks him out after major uses?

And the reason we assume yoda's are stronger is an inference because of how many yodas we ever see...

Three, four if you count KOTOR!

Yeah the desert scene facing down the tie-fighter is hilarious... why doesn't she run?

I think people blame it more on the writing though... the whole thing was rather... stupid when you think about it... Why is kylo gonna run her over?

The force lighning inconticence... Yeah i don't like it.

Mostly because it's implied it's a high-level technquie, and if the jedi forbid certain powers... well i mean id you can use it subconiuously i think there's an issue...

You're calling out facing kylo as stupid but my main problem is the set up...

People have a problem with her beating up zorii's crew because... that's not how you make friends...

Like at all...

"Look at how compasitionate rey is!"

Mauler liked it because it's a good way to convince 3p0 to sacrifice... I like it because it shows how well they know eachother...

but reall... you bring up how it does show her virtues... i guess... that works...

Yeah i will forgive her using the MT again.

After all, other then fin and the other, other storm troopers are weak willed and need to be culled...

Yeah i have an issue with that but that's a finn thing, not a rey thing... well, maybe you can blame a bit on rey...

huh, good point! She didn't need to say "a feeling' when she has a good idea of why it's needed.

"I feel it's a copout to use the force."

.... I doubt that.

Kylo lied to her... like i think that plays a part... i feel bad for her but at the same time... it's weird...

"nothing rey does when kylo shows up shows wha t a mary sue can do"

I mean... being emotional is something. And he doesn't hurt her because of his own plans...

Also she was lied to by kylo... or kylo is an idiot...

I choose both.

"You can see this as a retcon by jj or-"

No it's a retcon.

I think there's a case to be made JJ knew what rian did, and tired to patch it up... and failed...

"If Rey was a true mary sue, being related to palaptine wouldn't bother her."

If only you knew how many mary sues had the backstory of being related to a monster like that...

Also i don't think she's putting them in fanger...

Technically yeah but they leave without a scratch, well, other then poe...

Why didn't she heal poe?

"They had to save rey.'

Maybe Rey could have mary poppin's herself...

"Only a sith would say to destroy palaptine."

I think you missed the point of the first six movies... killing him was kinda an eventuallity..

Dude, how would she know about that part of the dagger, to stand int he perfect spot... how does the dagger even work? why was it forged like that? Why does OOchie have it?

There's a lot of problem with the Macmuffin there...

Okay... at leas you admit it with the boat... yeah... that was really weak...

bit weird compared to everything else...

I do like the callback as well.

I Like the music as well; ti's a good one...

but it reminds me vader failed to kill Palpatine...

You like thier fight because it was validatin you?

Okay... I'm kinda tired and juggling something right now, but i will say it's a weird

"Mary Sue's do not get tired"

Uh... well i mean they CAn... and she will eventually stab him and walk away... so i mean, maybe she did win..

"And they won't lose a fight."

I mean she hasn't suffered a lot, and i think the stabb to his abdomen makes it tricky...

And well... she's alive, practially unscared... she's doing well!

"Leia just wasn't to reach out to her son."

But it saves rey's life...

it's a bit of a dick movie on rey's part to kill someone whiule grieving for thier mother (I would have taken it... Kylo's an asshole. but still)

Yeah rey is acting werid comapred to the other 2 movies...

As if there was no grand plan...

i think this is why even a lot of fans had trouble with this movie; it just seems a bit off...e ach one might as well be seperate..

"someone as insecure as rey cannot be a mary sue"

I mean, even if i didn't think she's one here, she's been one int he otehr two, this is where it gets the most precident it seems.

"A mary sue wouldn't exile herself"

Oh

so Luke is okay now... can't compare him anymore; he's no longer a sue in his movies...

Oh yeah, the luke was wrong scene... somethign that makes me think JJ knew rian and he fucked up...

But it's too late now.

At least luke doesn't want a repeat of his life...

"A Mary sue would neevr be afraid of herself."

"I'm just too powerful! If i fall to the darkside i could rule the whoel world!"

yeah, needless to say i've seen sues do this before....

Yeah... Palpatine is werid here, but so far so good.

"Rey needed to be saved.

No she had her situation. he needed to be saved by her because he chucked his lightsaber into the ocean...

Yeah i can't fault Guards... I will fault the Knights of ren for being a dissapointment.

But the dyad healing comes out of nowhere... given Snoke put the bond in TLj and the Dyad retcons it... it's weird... really, really werid... because palps is in his head and he didn't know.

"i dont' think a mary sue would suffer like this."

She gets up she still fights... why wasn't she blasted into the hole with ben?

"Rey didn't need the ghosts."

I mean it would allow the prophecy to be true...a nd be fun to see.

"A Mary Sue would never die."

Like Jesus she comes back to life soon after...

Skylwaker naming scene...

Also no, it doesn't make sense.. that should be presevred, not lost...

And you wonder why make the past die was a thing; she gave anakin's saber a funeral in a place he HATES.

1) If you think this is identiy theft, you are an idiot.

not in a legal sense, but it's not her name. It was never her name, you can't decided to make it your own!

2) no rey Palpatine.

That's her name. That's her legal name and nothign will change it

Maybe if she wanted to be a part of thier family they all should have taken Dameron?

3) Rey Organa

I like it, makes sense...

4) Just Rey.

Yeah i like this one... she alreayd has her own bonds. Name doesn't make family

but this is minor themes...

and that's it

Now i think i will skip the external material... i think we're done here.

I saw everything i wanted to... and overall this video's arguments... are probably strongest near the end.

But it's too little too late

thanks for joining me.