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Do you think #Dune is a white savior narrative? Well, you're wrong.
To accept that interpretation is to reinscribe an account of the novel promulgated by adolescent white boys since the first of Frank Herbert's Dune books came out in the 1960s.
A thread.
To accept that interpretation is to reinscribe an account of the novel promulgated by adolescent white boys since the first of Frank Herbert's Dune books came out in the 1960s.
A thread.
In a 1965 interview FH directly situates Dune as a crit of TE Lawrence/other instances of "western exploitation” of "the avatar power"
"We've ['western man'] set out our missionaries to do our dirty work for us, and then come along behind them with the certain belief that we are right in anything that we do, because God has told us so -- God and the person of the avatar."
Pt of this has to do w his suggestion that John Campbell rejected the sequel to Dune, Dune Messiah, bc Campbell held to a "western" notion of the myth of individual triumph, as opposed to stories of broader social, collective movements.
This suggests many rdrs of Dune (& not its sequels) misread it, perhaps not realizing how intertextual & meta Herbert considered it (intentionally, he says, it's "high camp," a send-up of the hero's journey).
I recall enjoying the sequel more than Dune itself, in part bc it was tighter & more thrilling -- but also bc it was darker, recasting Dune in an entirely new light.
Here are some choice quotes from the interview.
Here are some choice quotes from the interview.
Audio: .Transcript: http://sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm
This bears out in a reading of the text. "Mahdi" is not an indigenous Fremen term but one the Bene Gesserit installed in order to manipulate the Fremen/Arrakis. Their objective is literally called the "missionaria protectiva."
Moreover, the "jihad" in the novels is not "purely" indigenous to the Fremen but also a ref to the BG/Harkonnen imperialist bloodline -- it's white imperialism. (I already threaded abt this here: https://twitter.com/hdernity/status/1303821094869237760)
In Dune Messiah, Paul sees himself as an imperial tyrant, & so do many of the Fremen. He even describes himself as an exponentially worse version of Genghis Khan or Hitler.
It's true that bc the series is basically abt imperialist manipulation of indigenous resistance, Fremen agency thus appears downplayed, esp due to narrative focus on Atreides & BG. I mostly agree here -- but even then I read the focus on leaders as critical, not hagiographical.
... It's notable that, as mentioned above, Herbert saw the series as about communities, not individuals. He believes that it's not that "pwr corrupts absolutely" but rather it "attracts the corruptible" ...
... -- Jesus, Mohammad, American presidents, no matter how "pure," were also bound by larger power structures, their legacies/goals disconnected from or coopted by fragmented communities (in this way he plays pretty explicitly on shi'ism, among much else in Christian hist.)...
... the focus on structure/agency in hist. & manipulation of Fremen make Fremen seem agency-less, but what makes it so int'ing is how hard it is for imperialists to maintain pwr. There's always resistance/unexpected consequences from the enviro or Fremen (or other imperialists).
Ppl also say Fremen are portrayed as romanticized/primitive barbarians, typical orientalist fare. Imo this is partly true, but it's also a lot more complicated...
It's telling that Herbert said he identified most w Stilgar -- the major Fremen protag (after Chani, who's mixed).
It's telling that Herbert said he identified most w Stilgar -- the major Fremen protag (after Chani, who's mixed).
In an interview w Lynch abt the film, FH details his proposal for restructuring American democracy to make it more "grassroots," connected to local communities (dashes of libertarianism there, which might earn some pause).
In that discussion, the interviewer refers to Fremen as "primitive." FH interrupts to call them "quite sophisticated."
He then lays out how his local American governance would allow even "some damn housewife," as a bureaucrat told FH, to work through complex policy decision that those in pwr would think her unable to understand.
Here're quotes from the interview. Transcript: http://w.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1043&start=100 Audio:
It's notable that the Fremen descend from zensunnis, an esteemed religion/people of scholars & poets in the Dune universe. They were persecuted by imperialists/slavery in the past, including the BG... which is how they got to Arrakis.
In the novels, they develop many techs & social practices to adapt to Arrakis: stillsuits, ecological projects. The lang around these projects in Dune is, as I rd it, a pretty explicit rejection of Garrett Hardin's tragedy of the commons/Club of Rome's Limits to Growth ideology.
Imperialists think resources r scarce/fixed, only controllable w law/politics, not tech/social practice. Fremen insist they aren't: they disagree w Hardin's assertion there r only political, not technological, solutions to the commons.
It's true that Liet-Kynes, the imperial judge & ecologist, introduced some of the terraforming ecological projects in Dune. But Fremen have their own ecological practices. And in the sequels Fremen & others come to reject Kynes/Paul's ecological modernization project.
It's telling that, in the 1st interview above, where FH crits "western man's" arrogance in thinking he can control nature & ppl, that FH calls Kynes the prototypical "western man in my original construction of the book, sees all these things happening to him as mechanical things"
It's also telling here that Herbert dedicates Dune "To the people whose labors go beyond ideas into the realm of 'real materials'- to the dry-land ecologists, wherever they may be, in whatever time they work, this effort at prediction is dedicated in humility and admiration"
There's a possibility of a deeper orientalism where FH distinguishes bw "moral v ethical law" or "law v religion." They're stilted terms...
... but basically what he means is law that's a direct response to the necessity of social/enviro condtns (or to religious/mystical elements not reducible to rational terms) -- v. law that requires some more abstract level of rational thinking.
I think of this as the distinction some Islamic scholars make bw ijtihad ("pure reasoning") & taqlid ("blind imitation") -- although I know in Islamic thought that my rough translations are arguably orientalist,
... and that this can be a false binary, the relationship being more porous or dialectical -- which is precisely the complex relationship in the Dune series bw what FH calls moral v. ethical law.
The best ex of this is Paul's decision at end of Dune to reject the Fremen moral law of killing a tribe leader to succeed him; he refuses to kill Stilgar & instead advocates for reform of the Fremen system -- ethics over morals.
What's interesting is that in Dune Messiah Paul becomes disillusioned with what one might call his modernization project to reform the Fremen in this way, while Stilgar, the Fremen, becomes more obsessed w ethical law, enacting bureaucratic orders that've lost their moral value.
And Dune Messiah ends where Paul basically accepts a moral law: instead of choosing to live as a blind man among his ppl, he chooses to walk off into the desert (following the Fremen custom that blind men must dispose of themselves in this way)
I'm not going to justify the ableism here. But the interesting pt is the dialectical, complex back/forth bw moral v ethical law here. It's not a simple, orientalist binary as I read it, although it has tinges of it.
I read this very much in line with Arendt's lament (among many others, especially postcolonial scholars like Cheikh Hamidou Kane's Ambiguous Adventure) of the rise of unchecked rationality & the loss of a sense of morality under the political/colonial condtns of modernity.
And again, Herbert doesn't dismiss the moral law as primitive/rudimentary but takes it seriously -- he takes religion seriously. In the above interviews he describes Jesus and Muhammad as great reformers whose legacies corrupted/complicated their reception...
... and his dedication's reference to ecologists' "real materials" over abstract "ideas" seems to be a clear call-out to a skepticism toward a rosy-eyed embrace of ethical law.
Another thing to note: Lots of folks are saying Herbert directly ripped off one or another culture or orientalist book (like Lanch's, among others). I think this is partly true. But, as is stated in the 1st interview, he actually says he rd "over 200 bks" to write the series...
So I don't think one can pin him to any one influence or say he directly ripped off particular ones. He's stated flat out that he drew from Middle Eastern/Arab, Central Asian, Kalahari, Native American hist., & from Buddhism, Judaism, & Islam.
His approach was syncretic, not singular -- a "pastiche," as @evanchill recently put it to me. He seems to've been inspired by his study of comparative religions (in addition to his political speech writing/journalist days)
I did a Q&A thread on this https://twitter.com/hdernity/status/1263877747488800768
I did a Q&A thread on this https://twitter.com/hdernity/status/1263877747488800768
For ex, the fanatics in Dune Messiah, the Qizarates, whose story shares elements of shi'i hist., also seem to be named after Coptic/Greek Christian terms (thx @ArabicSalama https://twitter.com/ArabicSalama/status/1295354809588088832 ). It's not one direct analogy/influence - that's what makes it so fascinating.
That said, I think what's disturbing here is FH's pulling from these histories w little to no acknowledgement of the historians he drew on or the societies he was inspired by. It's basically knowledge appropriation. No credit given where it's due.
Another thing: The seemingly subaltern Islamic/Arab terms in Dune don't always map directly onto the Fremen. Jihad & Mahdi as I mentioned have imperialist/missionary connotations (which to me speaks greatly of the real hist. of psychological colonization, black skin/white masks)
... and many of the names and terms belonging to the corporate & imperialist actors have Islamic or Arabic roots (among other influences). So while the Fremen are especially coded as Islamic-ish (ate?!), it's not a direct analogy.
Again, these wrinkles make Dune more fascinating & subversive than a straight-up "white savior" narrative (despite many other problematic elements, which I've only suggested in this very long thread!).
I think this would also complicate the racial casting of the film adaptations. I tend to agree the Houses/outsiders should be coded white and the Fremen POC, especially MENA. But I can also see that it's a complicated Q, bc FH wasn't so bald in the directness of the analogies.
I don't have a straight ans on the casting issue, but I do agree w many others that not casting ANY MENA actors is a disgrace to the new film (as well as the prior adaptations). I complained abt this way back in 2018 when the film was announced https://twitter.com/hdernity/status/1058392503009861638
Concluding thoughts: What makes Dune work so well is that it requires a lot of its readers, that the analogies are not direct. To just call it a white savior narrative misses a lot. It's a lost opportunity to engage w some very interesting ideas.
My impression is most ppl (myself included) rd the books (or maybe only the 1st one) as a teen. It went over their head. & now some years/decades later theyre claiming it's straightwdly orientalist based on a sketchy memory of an adolescent reading of a really complicated story.
For what it's worth, as a Dominican Pakistani Muslim kid, rding the Dune books was life-changing. It was the first time I'd encountered a major sci-fi work that took Islam & colonialism seriously, that *wasn't* straightfwdly orientalist.
Even then, altho much of its complexity went over my head, I had the sense of its many, syncretic layers that suggested to me it wasn't like the orientalist BS I was used to.
& when I encountered Dune Messiah I was taken aback, even as a kid, by its shi'i refs & by its far darker themes -- bc I sensed that this wasn't your avg hero's journey. Paul was the bad guy, the imperialist, the modernizer.
So. To just call Dune an orientalist white savior narrative reinscribes the white boys' teenage reading of the novel -- a reading that never really aligned with FH's intentions or even w an adult rding of the txt, despite its problems.
To me, the lack of Muslim & MENA casting in any of the Dune films is atrocious bc it not only ignores FH's influences (Islam/MENA being the most prominent of many) but also rejects the novels' profound significance to a whole generation (or more) of Muslim & MENA nerds.
Finally, I will add that these thoughts are not novel. Here are only a few who've already said something like this, & more eloquently (altho I have some v respectful quibbles/diffs of op): @use_theforce_em : https://www.tor.com/2019/03/06/why-its-important-to-consider-whether-dune-is-a-white-savior-narrative/
another by @use_theforce_em , https://www.tor.com/2017/04/18/david-lynchs-dune-is-what-you-get-when-you-build-a-science-fictional-world-with-no-interest-in-science-fiction/ &
PS - I totally forgot to say anything abt Herbert's refs to Islamic theological crits of natural law! (just look up "bi-la kaifa" and CTRL-F "time," "natural law," or "future" in Dune Messiah)
PPS - adding this here https://twitter.com/hdernity/status/1304107357606236160
More thoughts coming as ppl are replying to this: It's iInt'ing that FH described the morals/ethics tension as not only an overarching theme of the series but also of Paul's own internal conflict as a character...
... This suggests the morals/ethics tension, which could be rd as one bw an orientalist idea of west/nonwest, civilized/primitive, doesn't really map onto those binaries in the bks.
Also, some folks commenting on how this thread brings up Q of txt v. intent. I tried to supplement all my comments on FH's interviews w actual substance from the txt. & I know I said Dune Messiah is crucial to my rding (which btw is mine, & there can be diffs of op!)...
... but it's worth noting that all these elements are detectable w/n the txt of Dune itself, the 1st bk. Esp in Kynes's death scene, in Paul & Jessica's spice visions, & in the anxieties abt the coming "jihad." It's all there in the txt. ..
As a kid I did rd the 1st bk more heroically, but I also felt something else going on that wasn't that at all. The sequel felt like a satisfaction of something from bk 1, a continuance of a theme, not an overturning...
... this is purely anecdotal but one hypo is that it's abt *white boys* rding it, even bk 1. POC, especially Muslims & MENA, might rd it difftly.
When I rd FH's interviews I didn't feel that I'd been accosted by an intent alien to my experience of the text...
When I rd FH's interviews I didn't feel that I'd been accosted by an intent alien to my experience of the text...
Maybe the basic rding of the book ("basic" meant in both senses of the term!) is as much abt the secular or Christian whiteness of vocal/dominant elements of SF fandom than it is abt the text itself --
... in that sense, maybe FH's legacy, like that of his characters in Dune, has become overcome by the intransigencies of history's power structures.
Some folks commenting on Villeneuve -- barring casting, I hold out hope for the adaptation. I enjoyed the trailer. Throughout his filmography, Villeneuve is skeptical of hero's journeys. Most ppl look to Blade Runner 2049 to consider how he'll do Dune but I disagree.
The real ones to check out are Enemy (a crit of misogyny & pwr structures)& most esp Incendies which he said was inspired partly by Dune and is also abt mideast / colonialism. He explicitly filmed it as a crit of western gaze -- sounds a lot like FH!
The trailer's use of Pink Floyd's Eclipse (a nod to plans for PF to do music for Jodorowky's Dune) is smart -- especially the lyrics, which are suggestive of a darker story underlying the apparent heroic crescendo.
This use of music w unsettling undertones aligns w Villeneuve's similar use of Radiohead to create uncertainty, see Prisoners & Incendies
In Incendies, Radiohead was explicitly used to destabilize the western gaze by contrast to shots of sandy hills (which Villeneuve said were inspired by Dune). see
A brilliant piece on crits of western gaze/orientalism & dislocation/diaspora in Incendies here. Sadly blocked for nonacademics (the knowledge econ!): Claudia Kotte, "Zero Degrees of Separation: Post-Exilic Return in Denis Villeneuve's Incendies," in Cinematic Homecomings (2015).
wrt Incendies, Villeneuve maintained the original play's choice to make the setting an imaginary middle eastern location in order to play with dislocation & analogies around real violence/trauma -- which sounds a lot like what FH was doing w Dune.
hey all - I collated & revised these thoughts (taking into account fantastic input from many) into an essay on
@Medium . There are a few added bits & responses to the responses.
"Dune's Not a White Savior Narrative. But It's Complicated." https://medium.com/@hdernity/dunes-not-a-white-savior-narrative-but-it-s-complicated-53fbbec1b1dc
@Medium . There are a few added bits & responses to the responses.
"Dune's Not a White Savior Narrative. But It's Complicated." https://medium.com/@hdernity/dunes-not-a-white-savior-narrative-but-it-s-complicated-53fbbec1b1dc
