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On clear rules and policies.
I had an illuminating parallel conversation with two trans rights activists the other day @tomgabion and @ramendik about who should be allowed to use women's facilities.
They disagree with me, but they also disagree with each other.
I had an illuminating parallel conversation with two trans rights activists the other day @tomgabion and @ramendik about who should be allowed to use women's facilities.
They disagree with me, but they also disagree with each other.
My view is you need clear rules that everyone understands
The rule "don't try to enter spaces provided for the privacy of members of the opposite sex" is clear & reasonable.
If it is also supplemented with the policy "a unisex alternative is available" then no one is excluded
The rule "don't try to enter spaces provided for the privacy of members of the opposite sex" is clear & reasonable.
If it is also supplemented with the policy "a unisex alternative is available" then no one is excluded
Tom's view was this doesn't work because no one can tell what sex anyone else is without some kind of intrusive testing.
He said you should allow people of either sex and any appearance into the ladies based on trust that they are following their gender identity. The only criteria for exclusion should be if they are not "acting innocently"
Whereas Misha's view (in line with EHRC's advice) is that people are allowed in based on "presenting in a woman's gender role" (i.e. clothes and hairstyle)
Specifically, "permanently" presenting in the woman's gender role, although he recognised that this is impossible to check.
Both favoured ambiguous - but different- rules ('acting innocently' and 'presenting in female gender role') and a presumption of trust .
...and challenged the simple rule 'no males in women's spaces' as unenforceable
...and challenged the simple rule 'no males in women's spaces' as unenforceable
I argue that ambiguous rules that put women at greater risk of sexual harassment are a bad idea.
And it is perfectly possible to expect people to follow clear rules to respect the privacy of members of the opposite sex.
And it is perfectly possible to expect people to follow clear rules to respect the privacy of members of the opposite sex.
One final thing - often the plight of 'butch cis women' being mis-sexed is brought up (I have never met a woman in person not on T who appears male for more than a glance)
- Misha's rule based on "gender presentation" suggests these women should not be allowed into the ladies.
- Misha's rule based on "gender presentation" suggests these women should not be allowed into the ladies.
