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There's a small but vocal minority on the right which claims either:
1. Liberalism is wokeness, or a type of wokeness.
or
2. Liberalism decays into wokeness and wokeness is an inevitable result of liberalism.
Both claims are wrong and I'll explain why.
A Thread
There's a small but vocal minority on the right which claims either:
1. Liberalism is wokeness, or a type of wokeness.
or
2. Liberalism decays into wokeness and wokeness is an inevitable result of liberalism.
Both claims are wrong and I'll explain why.
A Thread
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How can they claim wokeness and liberalism are the same thing?
There's two ways:
1. They might conflate agreement on political policy with ideological agreement.
2. They might argue liberals and wokies agree on worldview and ideology, and the differences are merely cosmetic.
How can they claim wokeness and liberalism are the same thing?
There's two ways:
1. They might conflate agreement on political policy with ideological agreement.
2. They might argue liberals and wokies agree on worldview and ideology, and the differences are merely cosmetic.
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The first point is easy to refute: two people can agree on a policy for different reasons. A wokeist and a Libertarian may both think the Iraq war was a mistake; that doesn't mean they agree ideologically. This is obvious, it is the next argument that is far more interesting.
The first point is easy to refute: two people can agree on a policy for different reasons. A wokeist and a Libertarian may both think the Iraq war was a mistake; that doesn't mean they agree ideologically. This is obvious, it is the next argument that is far more interesting.
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The next argument claims that liberals and wokies really have the same goals, worldview, values and largely the same agenda. This view claims disagreements between wokies and liberals are merely surface level disagreements about how best to enact their shared vision.
The next argument claims that liberals and wokies really have the same goals, worldview, values and largely the same agenda. This view claims disagreements between wokies and liberals are merely surface level disagreements about how best to enact their shared vision.
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This is a mistake. Wokeness and liberalism are totally different worldviews. The liberal worldview says:
1. Reality is accessible by humans
2. Humans can have objectively true knowledge of reality
3. Truth is not relative
4. We can communicate truth clearly and accurately
This is a mistake. Wokeness and liberalism are totally different worldviews. The liberal worldview says:
1. Reality is accessible by humans
2. Humans can have objectively true knowledge of reality
3. Truth is not relative
4. We can communicate truth clearly and accurately
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They make more claims then that, but those are the claims that we will focus on here, because the woke worldview would take issue with all four of those points because the woke world view thinks about knowledge and truth entirely differently then liberals do.
They make more claims then that, but those are the claims that we will focus on here, because the woke worldview would take issue with all four of those points because the woke world view thinks about knowledge and truth entirely differently then liberals do.
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The woke would say:
1. We don't have access to reality only to our expreience of reality
2. Knowledge is created with 'standpoint epistemology' where people's 'knowledge' is rooted in their identity. That is, your social identity is what allows you to know what's true or false
The woke would say:
1. We don't have access to reality only to our expreience of reality
2. Knowledge is created with 'standpoint epistemology' where people's 'knowledge' is rooted in their identity. That is, your social identity is what allows you to know what's true or false
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3. Knowledge and power are intimately connected, and the process of creating and legitimizing knowledge is a political process meant to increase and perpetuate the power of the people doing the process.
4. All truth claims are also justifications to wield power.
3. Knowledge and power are intimately connected, and the process of creating and legitimizing knowledge is a political process meant to increase and perpetuate the power of the people doing the process.
4. All truth claims are also justifications to wield power.
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In other words, liberals think that rigorous epistemologies (knowledge production guidelines and processes) can give us knowledge about the world that is objectively true. While these can go awry because humans are limited, over time they do give us truth about the world
In other words, liberals think that rigorous epistemologies (knowledge production guidelines and processes) can give us knowledge about the world that is objectively true. While these can go awry because humans are limited, over time they do give us truth about the world
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Wokies deny this.
Wokies think what is really going on is each group wants to control the process of deciding what's true because the group that controls that process can say THEIR beliefs are the true beliefs. Whoever decides what is true in society has tremendous power...
Wokies deny this.
Wokies think what is really going on is each group wants to control the process of deciding what's true because the group that controls that process can say THEIR beliefs are the true beliefs. Whoever decides what is true in society has tremendous power...
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And the process of creating "truth" is really just about who gets to decide which beliefs in society are true, who gets believed, and therefore who gets the power.
Obviously these are VERY different views.
And the process of creating "truth" is really just about who gets to decide which beliefs in society are true, who gets believed, and therefore who gets the power.
Obviously these are VERY different views.
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So one might argue "sure, liberals and wokists disagree about science and knowledge, but they agree politically, and that's the point."
That's a step away from the original claim, but let's look at that claim for a moment because it will help set up the rest of the thread.
So one might argue "sure, liberals and wokists disagree about science and knowledge, but they agree politically, and that's the point."
That's a step away from the original claim, but let's look at that claim for a moment because it will help set up the rest of the thread.
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The wokies think science and knowledge creation are political processes they want to use political legislation as a means to influence it.
Liberals want the opposite. One of liberalisms highest priorities is removal of politics from science as much as possible
The wokies think science and knowledge creation are political processes they want to use political legislation as a means to influence it.
Liberals want the opposite. One of liberalisms highest priorities is removal of politics from science as much as possible
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In fact, the wokists read politics of all sorts (almost always identity politics) into everything in that happens in society.
Liberals are against this. The liberals believe certain things must remain outside the political realm. Science being one such example.
In fact, the wokists read politics of all sorts (almost always identity politics) into everything in that happens in society.
Liberals are against this. The liberals believe certain things must remain outside the political realm. Science being one such example.
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Clearly these are different worldviews. But this is important because it sets up the second part of our thread regarding The claim that liberalism either decay's into wokeness, or enables forces that cause the decay into wokeness.
Let's turn to that next.
Clearly these are different worldviews. But this is important because it sets up the second part of our thread regarding The claim that liberalism either decay's into wokeness, or enables forces that cause the decay into wokeness.
Let's turn to that next.
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The claim that liberalism decays into wokeness rests on the idea that once you have liberalism, wokeness is unstoppable because liberalism has no defences against wokeness. Liberalism is "thin civilizational gruel" as @SohrabAhmari says here:
The claim that liberalism decays into wokeness rests on the idea that once you have liberalism, wokeness is unstoppable because liberalism has no defences against wokeness. Liberalism is "thin civilizational gruel" as @SohrabAhmari says here:
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The claim here, that liberalism is civilizational grues misses the point. Liberalism is not SUPPOSED to be the thing that gives your life meaning or purpose. Liberalism is a way to resolve conflict within a democratic society without resorting to guns and warfare...
The claim here, that liberalism is civilizational grues misses the point. Liberalism is not SUPPOSED to be the thing that gives your life meaning or purpose. Liberalism is a way to resolve conflict within a democratic society without resorting to guns and warfare...
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For example, political disputes are resolved through voting, knowledge disputes are resolved through science, value disputes are resolved through the market, and moral disputes are resolved through legislation or through freedom of association. Now, I see the rejoinder:
For example, political disputes are resolved through voting, knowledge disputes are resolved through science, value disputes are resolved through the market, and moral disputes are resolved through legislation or through freedom of association. Now, I see the rejoinder:
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Liberal systems have been hijacked by wokies because liberalism can't stop a group like wokies who refuse to play the liberal game and instead hijack the liberal system for woke ends. IE: Cancel Culture, getting people fired, and using the education system, to teach wokeness
Liberal systems have been hijacked by wokies because liberalism can't stop a group like wokies who refuse to play the liberal game and instead hijack the liberal system for woke ends. IE: Cancel Culture, getting people fired, and using the education system, to teach wokeness
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While it's true that systems of liberalism can be put to misuse, (an achillies heel of liberalism no doubt), I would say the only reason wokeness got a foothold was because we, the liberals, did not react to it quickly enough. It was complacency on the part of liberals....
While it's true that systems of liberalism can be put to misuse, (an achillies heel of liberalism no doubt), I would say the only reason wokeness got a foothold was because we, the liberals, did not react to it quickly enough. It was complacency on the part of liberals....
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Which allowed wokeness to metastasize in the space between the academic left and the radical political protest left. This is not good and it should never have been allowed. But the fact that it haapened does not imply that liberalism necessarily rots into wokeness.
Which allowed wokeness to metastasize in the space between the academic left and the radical political protest left. This is not good and it should never have been allowed. But the fact that it haapened does not imply that liberalism necessarily rots into wokeness.
