"HTML/CSS are programming languages" is so tiresome. I don't attach any more or less value to something that is or isn't a programming language, I just think it's helpful for communication if "programming language" generally means something like the following:

"Meaningfully Turing complete language designed to allow the specification of an entire program".

HTML and CSS are just a fundamentally different category of thing to C or JavaScript.

That is not a value judgement, to anyone sensible. Of course, some people aren't sensible.

What's also not sensible is baiting both people who understand this, and also people for whom this *is* a value judgement by saying they are programming languages, then showing how right and righteous you are by pointing at the (again, wrong and irritating) value judgers.

I'm not some "well, actually" prick who thinks words, even fairly technical terms, have totally immutable formal meanings. This exchange:

"I'm learning programming"
"Awesome, good for you, what language?"
"HTML"
"Cool! Hope you're enjoying it!"

paraphrases a real one I've had.

And that's fine.

But amongst people who are experts, or anywhere close, it's just clearly more helpful if words have, y'know, useful meanings. Is JSON a programming language? Is YAML? Is Markdown? These things have pretty similar expressive power to HTML.

I only care enough to write this thread because most times I see this come up it's being made into a social justice issue, which is of course absurd. This is generally based on "more women do HTML/CSS, so a value judgement against HTML/CSS skills is sexist".

Which actually can be - and is often in practice - an example of sexism and exclusionary thinking in tech! But "HTML/CSS is a programming language" makes an adversary out of me when I could be an ally, because I think they aren't PLs, without that being a value judgement.

It's *so* similar to a miniature, tech version of "trans women are women": it's not enough to treat things equally and with universal respect, the demand is that you signal your purity by redefining language and meaning in some unnatural, absolute way. Sorry, no, you've lost me!