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So I made a thing on the history of the ace flag and at least some of the various "arguments" that its problematic and should be replaced.
I was originally going to post this on Tumblr but I don't know that I will, since I don't want to deal with moderating the notes. (1/?)
I was originally going to post this on Tumblr but I don't know that I will, since I don't want to deal with moderating the notes. (1/?)
I have a much better blocklist of exclusionists here on Twitter, so I'm sticking it on Twitter only (for the moment anyway).
There's quite a lot of ground to cover, and I don't even cover everything. There's simply too much material! (2/?)
There's quite a lot of ground to cover, and I don't even cover everything. There's simply too much material! (2/?)
All that said, here's a rundown of what I rundown of some of the research and unpacking I did. (3/?)
One of the big myths circulating about the ace flag is that it has a single, "problematic" creator.
In reality, the flag was community created.
https://www.asexualityarchive.com/the-asexuality-flag/ (4/?)
In reality, the flag was community created.
https://www.asexualityarchive.com/the-asexuality-flag/ (4/?)
Other point of conflict is that in the original intended meaning for the flag, the white stood for allies. (5/?)
What I've seen in the present-day is white being used to stand for the general concept of "sexuality" and sex-favorable aces. This is my own experience, and one I don't have concrete sources for.
If anyone has sources of it being used this way, please link! (6/?)
If anyone has sources of it being used this way, please link! (6/?)
The black and white on the asexual flag trace back to the Kinsey Scale and sexuality as a spectrum. Yes, this connects to the AVEN triangle and the controversies around that (keep reading).
(7/?)
(7/?)
I didn't address it in the slides because it felt like getting too into the weeds, but the purple comes from AVEN's website color scheme which in turn comes from a myth about amethyst. (8/?)
So much of the "criticism" of the ace flag comes from a place of bad-faith that it can be hard to untangle what's real, what's fake, and what's purposefully exaggerated.
(9/?)
(9/?)
Two of the worst bad-faith arguments have to do with it being too similar to either the bi flag (the reasoning here, I kid you not, is that they both have purple in them) or the transphobic gynephilia flag (which I believe came after the ace flag) 10/?
The earliest evidence I was able to find for the gynephilia flag existing is a DeviantART post from 2013, which is well after the ace flag.
https://www.deviantart.com/savvyred/journal/Pride-Flags-Colors-explained-379547414 (11/?)
https://www.deviantart.com/savvyred/journal/Pride-Flags-Colors-explained-379547414 (11/?)
And now for the most common criticism. When you point out that the ace flag doesn't have a single "problematic creator", criticism usually shifts to either treating the AVEN forums like a monolith creator or to saying that it was associated with AVEN/David Jay. (12/?)
Aphobes are obsessed with David Jay and seem to act like he invented asexuality.
Asexuality existed before David Jay. His role in ace history was primarily creating AVEN, a website/forum and visibility organization. (13/?)
Asexuality existed before David Jay. His role in ace history was primarily creating AVEN, a website/forum and visibility organization. (13/?)
I doubt David Jay is perfect or completely unproblematic, because no one exists without flaws. I'm not particularly interested in a character defense.
But also so much said about him is either exaggerated or blatantly false? (14/?)
But also so much said about him is either exaggerated or blatantly false? (14/?)
Aphobes LOVE the idea of a "cishet homophobic asexual who is invading LGBT spaces" so I find it pretty suspicious that the claims about David Jay tend to line up precisely with that idea.
Especially since he's not heteroromantic! (15/?)
Especially since he's not heteroromantic! (15/?)
In an interview from this June, he talks about being aromantic.
There's also a rather sensational Daily Mail (urgh) article talking about him being in a f/m/m polyam relationship.
https://www.petermcgraw.org/asexuality/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6631989/Asexual-man-lives-married-couple-parent-baby.html (16/?)
There's also a rather sensational Daily Mail (urgh) article talking about him being in a f/m/m polyam relationship.
https://www.petermcgraw.org/asexuality/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6631989/Asexual-man-lives-married-couple-parent-baby.html (16/?)
This all seems to line up with the aphobic/exclusionist assumption that all ace people are cisgender and heteroromantic and hate gay people and are out to take over LGBT.
(This is all BS by the way)
(17/?)
(This is all BS by the way)
(17/?)
The evidence of homphobia tends to be that he made a joke using the word f*g twenty years ago.
I don't think that's great, but it also seems to be a standard of "proof of homophobia" that I don't usually see applied to allo people. (18/?)
I don't think that's great, but it also seems to be a standard of "proof of homophobia" that I don't usually see applied to allo people. (18/?)
I've also seen various people say that he at the time identified as homo- or bi- romantic which would also give a different flavor to it, but I can't find sources and honestly it starts to feel sort of gross to dig that deeply into one man's identity. (19/?)
Then there's the thing about the AVEN triangle. This is variously referred to as either proof of anti-semitism or homophobia. (20/?)
In tweet #7 I included a model of the Kinsey scale that took the form of an upside-down black, white, and grey triangle.
The criticism here is that it is similar to the upside down pink triangle, which is a reclaimed Holocaust symbol. (21/?)
The criticism here is that it is similar to the upside down pink triangle, which is a reclaimed Holocaust symbol. (21/?)
The upside down black-white-grey triangle is used as the logo of the organization AVEN, whose forums hosted the creation of the flag. The argument here is that the flag is tainted by association with the use of the triangle.
(22/?)
(22/?)
Only the pink triangle and the AVEN triangle have totally different evolutionary paths. The AVEN triangle doesn't come from the pink triangle. (23/?)
The anti-semitic accusations in regard to the triangle also look like a reach given the different evolutionary tracks. Also, the people arguing that any use of the shape of an upside down triangle is anti-semitic tend to only focus on AVEN, not any other uses of the shape. (24/?)
The other accusation around anti-semitism tends to be vaguer and roughly falls into the category of "there was/is anti-semitism on the AVEN forums and/or on the part of its moderators). (25/?)
This one's harder to research. I also tend to find it the most credible of all the accusations, given how deeply antisemitism is ingrained in Western cultures. (26/?)
Like most asexuals, particularly young ones, I'm not familiar with the intricacies of old AVEN forum discourse.
I have seen references to AVEN mod drama, and this Asexual Agenda post discusses problems with the AVEN forums: https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/how-can-we-respond-to-problems-with-aven/ (27/?)
I have seen references to AVEN mod drama, and this Asexual Agenda post discusses problems with the AVEN forums: https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/how-can-we-respond-to-problems-with-aven/ (27/?)
I don't see antisemitism specifically discussed there, although again, given the nature of both our culture and the internet at large, I can well believe that there is/was antisemitism on an internet forum. (28/?)
But I'm also wary of accusations that AVEN forums at the time of the flag's creation was a "hotbed of Nazi apologia", especially since I mostly see this said by young allo exclusionists who don't provide sources. (29/?)
I think at this point, you would need to find and talk to some Jewish aces who were active on AVEN ten years ago.
But I think you're getting back to the general point of "what does this have to do with the flag?" (30/?)
But I think you're getting back to the general point of "what does this have to do with the flag?" (30/?)
All of the stuff with AVEN and with David Jay feels tenuous in connection to the flag. The claims that it's "associated" with something problematic feels like a double-standard that isn't applied to other queer flags. (31/?)
A lot of this seems to be an attempt to make the "community creator" of the ace flag work the same way as the flags with "individual creators" who are accused of being problematic (see the constant discourse about the lesbian flag). (32/?)
The most recent drama around the ace flag seemed to be over Pride Month art/merch and attacking it for the reason the lesbian flag wasn't included or saying that it should be replaced with a lesbian flag. (33/?)
Ace and lesbian identities are often pitted against each other, particularly with the inclusion of ace identity being framed as anti-lesbian. As someone who is both ace and lesbian, I tend to see this a lot. (34/?)
Queer representation is not a finite resource, and the presence of asexuality does not take away from any other queer identities. (35/?)
And also: the ace flag appearing in corporate merch and art is NEW. I came out as asexual five years ago, and visibility of the ace flag has changed a lot in that time.
I included the asexual Oreo in the last slide because that was the first time I saw the ace flag in corporate Pride Month marketing.
That was in 2018. That's pretty recent! (37/?)
That was in 2018. That's pretty recent! (37/?)
I have a lot of mixed feelings about this and Rainbow capitalism, but I am glad that there's greater visibility. (38/?)
And I believe that part of why the ace flag is being included now in pride merch stuff is because its been used consistently for ten years.
It takes time for a flag to reach that level of acceptance and awareness! (39/?)
It takes time for a flag to reach that level of acceptance and awareness! (39/?)
What concerns me is when I see people bringing up a lot of bad-faith or outright lies about the asexual flag to try and convince young ace people that they shouldn't be using it. That's why I put this information together. (40/?)
I would like to thank the mods of @aphobelist for looking over a rough draft of these slides. They were all wonderful!
Any faults in this presentation are entirely my own and not theirs. I have added to it and revised it since the version they saw.
Any faults in this presentation are entirely my own and not theirs. I have added to it and revised it since the version they saw.
If you want to share these slides and these sources with those you think need them, be my guest. Do note that I've got A LOT of exclusionist Twitter blocked so they might not be able to see.
Maybe I'll post this on Tumblr sometime. I don't know if I want to deal with everything I might get in response, but I feel like it's the sort of information that could be good to share there.
I'm wrapping this up with some more links to sources.
I'm wrapping this up with some more links to sources.
This AVEN thread from 2017 discusses the use of the triangle. https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/151701-why-does-this-site-use-the-triangle/page/2/
Another thread on the triangle. https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/184741-demisexual-flagblack-triangle-nazi-symbol/?tab=comments#comment-1063310073
The Asexual Archives brief overview of the asexual flag. This is probably the best, succinct source I've come across and its the one I tend to link people. https://www.asexualityarchive.com/the-asexuality-flag/
Here's a thread from the creation of the ace flag. It references the grey for grey aces. https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/40768-flag/page/2/
Another forum thread on the triangle. https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/68344-the-appropriated-asexual-triangle/
An archived AVEN webpage with the Kinsey scale model as a triangle.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020601164243/http://www.asexuality.org/Theory/asexuality.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20020601164243/http://www.asexuality.org/Theory/asexuality.htm
Yet another AVEN forum thread on the triangle. https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/85046-usage-of-the-triangle-for-asexualsis-it-offensive/
The interview where David Jay says he's aro: https://www.petermcgraw.org/asexuality/
The sensational, tabloid style Daily Mail piece about David Jay's polyamorous relationship: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6631989/Asexual-man-lives-married-couple-parent-baby.html
A GLAAD post that has the upside down pink triangle as a gay pride symbol: https://www.glaad.org/blog/mashable-publishes-date-compilation-lgbt-flags-and-symbols
Finally, this Tumblr post covers a lot of similar ground and has some more links. https://historicallyace.tumblr.com/post/622622456462639104/hi-hello-ive-gone-through-your-whole-blog-and
I did end up posting this to Tumblr, along with a transcript of the text in the images. https://coolcurrybooks.tumblr.com/post/624754395947630593/a-brief-overview-of-the-asexual-flag-and-an
