BATMAN V SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE ᴜʟᴛɪᴍᴀᴛᴇ ᴇᴅɪᴛɪᴏɴ

Watch-Along Commentary Thread

Bruce’s narration about diamond absolutes is always interesting to me.

“A time above above... perfect things...” - Life with his parents

“Things fall” - Wayne murder

“They took me to the light” - His life as Batman

“A beautiful lie” - Robin’s death, all his pain

If I ever spend 10 years raising someone, I’d want them to sit through my whole funeral

Negan and Maggie as Thomas and Martha Wayne. Literal perfection. I still hope for a real Flashpoint movie some day. #SorryKeaton

A father’s instincts. The second a gun is drawn on his wife and kid, Thomas clenches his fist ready for anything. Sure, he was gonna lose, but he wasn’t afraid. In that moment, he wasn’t thinking about his own life.

“Things fall...”

“Why do we fall?”

The gun wrapped around the pearls being broken by the gunfire was very creative. Snyder’s eye for visual creativity is pretty unmatched.

“Martha.”

Bruce watches his parents die and hears his mother’s name as his father’s dying word. Probably important. But we’ll get back to that.

“In the dream, they took me to the light. A beautiful lie.”

In reality, I believe the bats attacked Bruce. In his dream, they carried him towards the light/his future which he now knows is still filled with pain. He thought Batman was the solution, but it’s another problem.

I love this title card. Say what you want about Snyder, but he has legitimate passion for these characters. He takes them seriously and grounds them in reality.

We finally join someone on the ground. In MAN OF STEEL, we saw this from a god’s point of view. Now through a man’s.

Also, The World Engine obviously being another trigger for Bruce’s PTSD. Bruce was helpless when his parents died and he’s helpless now.

I’d care so much more if this was Lucius Fox

Bruce’s race through Metropolis has always been one of the best scenes in the movie. From the score and the absolute panic. Just perfect.

“LUCIUS!!!!”

“You’re the boss, boss.”

It was smart to have a ramification of Superman’s actions come from someone on Bruce’s side. The larger world affected by him.

A perfect reason to want Superman dead. On top of everything Bruce just saw and went through, he has to console a little girl that lost exactly what he did as a kid. It’s a personal vendetta.

Almost 2 years have passed since the events of MAN OF STEEL

Just beautiful

“Jimmy Olsen” meets Lois Lane. Honestly this doesn’t bother me. Snyder had no intention of using Jimmy in his story, so he just gave a nod to the character. I don’t see that as disrespecting him. It’s a CIA agent that used the name Jimmy Olsen. It’s fine.

The MVP was just introduced

“They did not tell me the interview was with a lady.”

“I’m not a lady, I’m a journalist.”

You go, girl.

Rip Jimmy Olsen

There should still be bullets in these burned bodies. Literally any autopsy or actual investigation should prove Superman didn’t do this.

Zack Snyder said fuck the US government

Superman did what he had to do

He’s just thinking about jolly ranchers

Watchmen Easter Egg #1

A perfect introduction for Batman. This theme is the most unsettling. It’s great for a “villainous” interpretation of Batman.

Even after all these years, Batman is still feared and referred to as “it.”

Batman just watched HEREDITARY.

Jokes aside, Zack Snyder always handles horror very well. This shot is legitimately creepy.

So, Batman brands criminals now. I think that’s too far for Batman, which I know is the point, but this also confuses me. Does he brand criminals because he wants them to get killed? Or is Lex making it look like that? If so, wouldn’t Batman stop if that’s not what he wants?

I’m just gonna say this now... this Lois subplot is dumb

Superman was so obviously set up, this bullet subplot is painful

In WATCHMEN, Ozymandias used a doomsday device with Dr. Manhattan’s signature on it to make it look like he did it. Makes sense. They should’ve used some form of heat signature/energy if they really wanted to frame Superman. Make it look like Superman actually did it.

This is the closest thing to a realistic billionaire owned Batcave that we’re ever gonna get. The red monitors and the waterfall look sweet.

This layer of armor in Batman’s mask is how he can take a point blank gunshot to the head and live. No one talks about how he has this in the cowl. I think it’s really cool.

“New rules”

I like to believe Bruce took General Zod’s battle armor as inspiration for his own armored suit. Yes, further implying that he is the villain in this story. Which he is.

Alfred should’ve put his foot down with Bruce a little bit more. Especially later, but we’ll get to that.

Lex Luthor’s first line of dialogue in this movie is “ooh ah, ahoy ahoy!”

That blows my mind.

Ok, this scene is crucial. One of the most important scenes in the whole movie. Lex explains everything. His history, his motivation, and his plan B.

“A deterrent. A silver bullet.” Lex explains that he needs the Kryptonite to weaponize in case Superman goes bad.

“Ah yes, Superman. But there are more of them.”

Lex’s metahuman thesis explains why he creates Doomsday. Yes, he manipulated Batman and Superman to fight. He planned on Batman killing Superman. So, why did he still create Doomsday you ask? For the others.

“You don’t need a silver bullet, but if you forge one you won’t have to depend upon the kindness of monsters.”

Doomsday became Lex’s plan B to kill Superman. If Batman did kill Superman, Lex would’ve contained Doomsday and kept him for when another metahuman showed up.

And then you ask, but Doomsday broke out immediately, how would Lex have contained him? Doomsday throws a punch and, if not for Superman, would’ve killed Lex. I don’t think it would’ve worked out for him but because this is a movie, it worked out perfectly.

Quick fun fact: According to Mercy herself, Tao Okamoto, Snyder saw her in THE WOLVERINE (2013) and wanted to just give her a role in his next film. She was happy to be given Mercy, even though the character isn’t Japanese in the comics. I hope we see her again somehow.

Lex’s theme is one of the best themes used for a villain in movie history. Off the top of my head, maybe 2nd behind Darth Vader.

Well, as long as it’s cherry

These eggs are faker than my ex

The little Action Comics #1 reference in Wally’s apartment is a nice touch

Perry: “End of love affair with man in sky?”

It’s only been 18 months. They make it seem like Superman has been around for so long in this movie. Metropolis is pretty divided on him too, I wouldn’t call it a love affair in the slightest.

Thank god for the ultimate edition. 1.) Clark gets more screentime 2.) Seeing him actually be a journalist is great 3.) It shows Clark’s distaste for Batman in a logical way.

“There is a new kind of mean in him. He is angry and he’s hunting.”

I love this man. I also love seeing the people of Gotham and their point of view on him.

This is Bruce Wayne. One of the best fighters in the world. Watches a fight for a few minutes and notices a weakness in the guy. He even gives that tip to the little guy and gives him an edge in the fight. That nod between the two of them is perfect.

Clark: “The cops are actually helping him.”

That really does show how fucked up the GCPD is. We all know Batman is good, but they’re aiding a vigilante that brutalizes people. Not a good look.

“The red capes are coming. The red capes are coming.”

This line bothers me because it’s so good and I didn’t think of it.

I thought he was for sure gonna kill her in this scene

Symbolism

Bruce hearing the World Engine in his nightmares is pure horror

There are numerous interpretations of the bat creature. I see it as Bruce’s fear of Batman taking over completely. It bursts out of Martha’s tomb, destroying it. He thinks Batman will now take the memory of his parents with him. Leaving him a monster.

This scene sums up Bruce’s current state of mind. Wakes up terrified after a nightmare, pops some pills, downs it with wine, and has a random woman in bed with him. No dialogue needed. Everything in his bedroom is there as a suppressor. They’re band-aids and his life is the wound

I like the small details like when Bruce brings Alfred coffee for a change. It’s best when Bruce doesn’t treat Alfred like a butler. They’re family and Alfred is his best friend.

Upon this viewing, I’ve completely changed how I see Bruce in this film. I originally thought this shot was about Bruce wanting to put on the suit, but he hates it. The scenes prior prove this. He had a nightmare about a bat creature taking over. +

Then, he tells Alfred he needs the suit with a dead look on his face. Alfred says Bruce is the one that got the codes from Anatoli, but Bruce explains he can’t break into Lex’s house. But he was invited so he can show up as Bruce. This shot here, shows Bruce’s hatred for Batman.

He’s scared of what that suit will do to him. Batman hurts so many people, including Bruce Wayne. He’s scared of the day that Batman takes over Bruce Wayne for good. Which is further implied in a later scene. But we’ll get there.

A beautiful lie. Bruce goes from the Batsuit directly to the Robin suit. He blames Batman for Robin’s death. He blames everything bad in his life on Batman. All the loss and torment is because of Batman. Batman was supposed to be the light. He wasn’t. A beautiful lie.

This shot was necessary to the plot

Perhaps my favorite detail about this movie. Snyder said after Thomas and Martha’s death, Bruce left Wayne Manor to decay and ordered that no one keep it up. So, he moved in to their lake house. Thomas bought Martha that lake house, so it was like her personal safe haven.

Bruce moves in to feel closer to her and escape his past

Clark hearing Alfred in Bruce’s ear was a great detail

“The bitter sweet pain among men is having knowledge without power. Because that is paradoxical.”

Lex sums up his hate for Superman in one sentence.

Clark attacks Bruce with facts about Batman. Bruce attacks Clark with facts about Superman.

What a meeting between the two greatest superheroes of all time. It’s crazy seeing these two together for the first time in live-action.

Bruce and Clark said “Ohhh this fucking guy.”

Just this shot

Diana outsmarting Bruce for the win. She got him to do the work for her. Not bad.

“Must there be a Superman?”

“There is.”

All of this talk and discussion in the background of Superman saving people and doing the extraordinary. They want to control him so badly. The feeling of powerlessness right?

I really like Jena Malone. And her role is pretty integral later. It was stupid to cut her from the theatrical version.

Numerous articles about the Bat-Brand. And Bruce saw it. He knows what’s happening. So he’s okay with them getting murdered? That’s what he wants?

Also, Watchmen Easter Egg #2

“He didn’t know he was going to die. He just bought groceries.”

If the Bat-Brand is a death sentence, why did Anatoli have to order it? Does he do that every time?

I always laugh when this dude says enjoy. Like “yes, sir, I’m gonna eye fuck this thing to death” I swear I love art and museums but I’ve had that joke in my head for years.

Diana’s face when Bruce grabs her says “This mortal thinks I can’t snap him in half with my pinkie.”

“I’ve known a few women like you.”

Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Talia al Ghūl, etc.

Diana: “Well yes, but actually no.”

That looks like Wayne Manor in the background of that first picture. Is this Gotham? I know Darkseid decimates the place and basically turns it into Apokalips, but if this was Gotham, that’s gnarly. Darkseid even branded the city as his own too. Little nod to the Bat-Brand.

Carrie Kelley (?)

Slade Wilson (?)

Bruce loses more of his allies because of Batman bringing them into the fight/recruiting them. People die around him. But he never does. He always has to live with it.

This shot

“You took her from me.”

Lois is Clark’s world and Batman knows that. Batman would definitely use Lois against Superman. As Batman refers to her: “The Big Gun.”

After succumbing to the Anti-Life Equation Superman would be Darkseid’s perfect weapon. A nightmare future.

Flash picked the wrong “hoop to jump through” so to speak. He arrived too soon. He was supposed to arrive in the Batcave to save Lois from Darkseid I believe. So instead, he had to warn Bruce about Lois’ role and not to trust Superman.

“Fear him. Find us, Bruce.”

I wish Alfred yelled at Bruce here. He’s assuming Superman won’t stay good. Bruce is starting a war with Superman. He’s in the wrong. He wants to punish Superman for something he hasn’t even done yet.

“He is not our enemy.”

“How many good guys are left? How many stay that way?”

More families hurt and struggling because of Batman’s actions. This is where Clark decides he’s had enough.

“Words don’t stop men like him.”

Clark doesn’t go to the Daily Planet and drops trying to report on it. He goes to see Batman as Superman now.

*Not a real gun

I can’t stand tank-Batmobiles, but this is the best it’s looked. It’s tough seeing Batman so careless during this chase. He really is playing by new rules.

“The Bat is dead. Bury it.”

“Tell me... do you bleed?”

This isn’t Bruce talking. This is Batman in this scene. Not thinking. Just pure rage.

“You will.”

“Does he act by our will or by his own?”

That line is said over this moment. Later, Lex says “Now God bends to my will.”

Further stating, power corrupts. An absolute power corrupts absolutely. That’s what Lex wanted. Knowledge with power. That’s his goal.

“You don’t owe this world a thing. You never did.”

She’s right. He tries to please do many people, he pleases no one.

Lex blocking the victim’s fund checks. He’s always 10 steps ahead of everyone. Literally an evil genius.

The crowd is divided

I really wish Superman talked in this scene. He could’ve spoke about what he learned and won them over. Then they all die anyway. Showing it was for nothing. That would crush Superman more.

I love this scene. The jar of pee is literally Lex saying “Fuck you.” Senator Finch was terrified. That was a clear message and his empty seat told her she was about to die with everyone else.

Superman pleading his case would’ve made this more impactful. No matter what he does, death of innocents follows him like a shadow.

The last push Bruce needed. He’s gonna end it.

Superman feels responsible. His face alone tells you he’s devastated.

“I’m afraid I didn’t see it because I wasn’t looking.”

Lex made Superman think he’s careless and not a good symbol for the world.

“This means something.”

“It did on my world. My world doesn’t exist anymore.”

He thinks he’s fighting for a lost cause. Lois even looks like that hurt her. When he rediscovers his humanity, he sees Lois as his one true purpose. Why he fights. His world.

Batman immediately steals the Kryptonite to finish off Superman. Exactly what Lex wanted.

“This means something. It’s all some people have.”

Lois speaks her personal truth.

This was a bonkers way to go about getting on the ship. I’d cut off Zod’s hand. But fingerprints... aight

Bruce doing CrossFit legitimately motivates me to exercise as well

Ah yes, the logos.

I feel like the world’s greatest detective would have heard about Wonder Woman. Fought in WWI in the public eye and whatever happens in 1984.

“You flew too close to the sun.” I always laugh at how hard Lex cuts his hand

This image haunts me

Dawn

“Did the nightmares ever stop?”

“Yeah, when I met your mother. She gave me faith that there’s good in this world.”

“This may be the only thing I do that matters.”

Bruce is about to sacrifice his soul to protect his city. Alfred tries one last time to save him. And here we are again. Back to Bruce’s fear of Batman.

“This is about the future of the world.”

Bruce thinks Batman is the solution

He still sees Batman as the solution. Batman has always been the problem. Or at least what Batman currently stands for.

The first generation of Waynes were hunters. That’s how they made their fortune. He thinks it’s in his blood to hunt and kill.

With Bruce on that mindset, Alfred says: “So falls the House of Wayne.”

Alfred knows that if Bruce kills Superman, Batman takes over. Bruce will be gone entirely. No humanity left. A throwback to UNDER THE RED HOOD, if Bruce goes down that path, he may never come back.

That’s Bruce’s fear. Batman represents everything Bruce fears. And Batman would’ve won. He would’ve taken over completely... but Superman said that infamous word. He reminds Bruce WHY he fights. Why he became a hero. But we’ll get there.

Batman with prep time

The Knight is here

Lex uses Lois to lure Superman out once again.

But what if Superman didn’t arrive and he killed her?

Then he gets revenge for her digging into his business with the bullet. Either way, Lex wins.

Psychopaths think you’re inferior or unedcucated if you don’t understand their way of thinking.

Funny.

Lex legit sniffs her right here

“If God is all powerful, he can not be all good. And if he is all good, then he can not be all powerful.”

Once again, Lex explains his hatred for Superman.

“No one stays good in this world.”

The theme of the entire movie.

Again, I wish Bruce was more of a smartass about it and always kind of knew about her

I don’t love the gratuitous Justice League tease

Son of Krypton vs Bat of Gotham

80+ years of character history and we finally see these two dish it out on the big screen. That’s pretty amazing.

“Well... here I am.”

I love it when Batman gets smug

“I UNDERSTAND!”

Batman’s scream and Superman’s nonchalant push is perfect

Batman is a monster in this scene.

“Breathe it in. That’s fear. You’re not brave. Men are brave.”

Batman said “Umm I can explain.”

Batman using a gun and Superman not being faster than a speeding bullet...

Watchmen Easter Egg #3

This always looked like the most painful thing to me

Joker Easter Egg

Batman about to win. About to take over completely. This moment marks the last time Batman is in control.

Clark won. He threw Batman off by mentioning Bruce’s mom. Showing Bruce that in Clark’s final moments, he was thinking about the safety of someone else. “You’re letting him kill Martha.” THAT is what reminded Bruce of WHY he became Batman.

“I’ll make you a promise. Martha won’t die tonight.”

Bruce’s journey still isn’t over. He has to right his wrong. He nearly let the monster take over. That’s why Bruce feels the need to over correct. Save Martha, assemble the Justice League, etc.

Batman still kills here. Bruce recognizes the problem but he hasn’t solved it yet. He still has to save Martha. THAT is his turning point.

If he saves Martha this time, he beats the monster. That’s his redemption. That’s when he stops killing and being so brutal.

The best Batman fight scene in film (so far)

It should’ve been Garfield Lynns as Lex’s henchman. A better Batman villain for this movie as opposed to KGBeast. Then the “death by fire” thing would’ve flowed better. He could’ve been suited up as Firefly for this part.

“I’ll KEEL her!”

“It’s okay. I’m a friend of your son’s.”

“I figured. The cape.”

Heartwarming.

“If man won’t kill God, the devil will do it.”

Lex’s plan B. The metahuman thesis. The silver bullet. The deterrent.

The CGI on Doomsday is amazing. It looks extremely impressive.

“Your Doomsday.”

The best moment with Doomsday. He sees the statue of Superman. He stops hunching over and stands up straight. Then, he sees Superman arrive. Doomsday puts it together. Kill Superman and he’s on top.

“Miss Prince!”

Imagine if Wonder Woman wasn’t in the trailer and they didn’t show us the picture of her earlier. We hear this for the first time, put it together, and lose our minds.

Martian Manhunter just let them nuke Superman

Yes yes he’s evolving I know...

DCeased

“I need it to chase me. Back to the city. Back to the Kryptonite.”

Sure.

What an introduction! That theme is absolutely amazing. Wonder Woman really steals the show.

Wonder Woman: “Why did you bring it back to the city?”

Batman: “This port is abandoned. I swear I’m not as dumb as I look right now.”

The Holy Trinity

Monster killing? Wonder Woman is actually the CEO of that.

Batman’s like “That clown guy ain’t looking so bad right about now.”

I like The Dark Knight Returns too

I love Wonder Woman’s smile here. She loves battle.

“This is my world. You are my world.”

Superman was at peace. He found his place in this world. Lois gives him purpose.

The Trinity vs Doomsday

Wonder Woman probably could’ve done it all on her own tbh

They were both killed by being stabbed in the heart.

I’m sorry but this death feels so unearned. I’ll wait to see how his entire arc wraps up, but it was way too soon. I feel sadder seeing Lois’ reaction. The death itself doesn’t phase me.

Now I like this moment. Lois’ reaction gets to me, Wonder Woman knows how much he meant to her, and Batman feels a tremendous amount of guilt.

Hey, Steppy. See you next year.

I love how Lex gets his head shaved in prison and then when we see him from here on out he’s bald. Like he thought he looked fresh as hell so he just keeps the bald look for the rest of his life. He can pull it off.

At this point, they should know he’s Superman. It was an open casket!!!

This shot pleases me

Superman’s funeral Clark’s funeral

Foreshadowing

“I walked away from mankind for a century.”

Did you though?

“Men are still good.”

Bruce basically explains how he was wrong this whole time. How Superman changed him and this world for the better. Superman was a beacon of hope to the world.

One of my favorite scenes

“There are hospitals that treat the mentally ill with a compassion. But that’s not where you’re going. I’ve arranged for you to get a transfer to Arkham Asylum in Gotham. I still have some friends there. They’re expecting you.”

“He’s coming!”

No Kryptonian. This world will fall. Like all the others.

Rip Superman...

...Not

Overall, this is not a perfect movie. Very few are. But it raises questions. And for years, I’ve wanted all the answers. This is probably my 7th viewing or so. I like it more and more each time. This thread has helped me understand more things too.

So many people didn’t like this movie because they expected an epic battle between Batman and Superman. That’s not what it’s about. It’s a character study. It’s about how flawed these characters we love really are. Bruce’s PTSD. Clark’s struggle with his place in the world.

I find myself enjoying Bruce’s scenes more than Batman’s. Whether or not you like or dislike this movie, you can’t say Zack Snyder doesn’t care or doesn’t respect these characters. He does. He loves them. As much as we all love them. And this is his world.

It’s his vision. You can’t tell Zack how to write these characters. After 80+ years of history, they are allowed to change. Creators are allowed to create. I enjoy this movie and I enjoy what Zack was trying to say about these characters.

This story will continue next year in ZACK SNYDER’S JUSTICE LEAGUE. Streaming exclusively on HBO Max. I can’t wait to see it, but above all else, I’m happy to see Zack’s true vision come to life. After all this, it’s what he deserves. We are all fans.

Thank you @ZackSnyder