Read on Twitter
Below is some data from my Tweet thread comparing the advanced stats of Jordan's and LeBron's teammates.
RS on LEFT; POs on RIGHT. Red=MJ champs; Gold=LBJ's champs; Yellow=LBJ's other Finals.
Next: MJ & LBJ compared head-to-head.
Tweet thread on mates:
https://twitter.com/grisingTRS/status/1275487455227949061
RS on LEFT; POs on RIGHT. Red=MJ champs; Gold=LBJ's champs; Yellow=LBJ's other Finals.
Next: MJ & LBJ compared head-to-head.
Tweet thread on mates:
https://twitter.com/grisingTRS/status/1275487455227949061
This Tweet thread will examine/compare Jordan and LeBron's individual advanced stats, first in regular season and, later in the week, in the playoffs.
2/x
2/x
REGULAR SEASON advanced stats.
LBJ has already played longer and has higher cumulative stats (OWS, DWS, WS, VORP).
MJ a little higher in proficiency stats (PER, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM).
MJ's two years w/ Wizards brought his proficiency down.
LBJ hasn't hit decline phase yet.
LBJ has already played longer and has higher cumulative stats (OWS, DWS, WS, VORP).
MJ a little higher in proficiency stats (PER, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM).
MJ's two years w/ Wizards brought his proficiency down.
LBJ hasn't hit decline phase yet.
MJ, LBJ: RS OFFENSIVE Adv stats
LEFT Chart sorted by OBPM:
LBJ has top 2 & tie for 3.
But MJ has 7 of top 10.
MJ 5 of lowest 7.
Overall OBPM
MJ 7.2
LBJ 7.1
RIGHT Chart sorted by OWS/48.
Similar distribution to OBPM.
Overall OWS/48:
MJ .175
LBJ .165
OWS
MJ 149.9
LBJ 165.7
LEFT Chart sorted by OBPM:
LBJ has top 2 & tie for 3.
But MJ has 7 of top 10.
MJ 5 of lowest 7.
Overall OBPM
MJ 7.2
LBJ 7.1
RIGHT Chart sorted by OWS/48.
Similar distribution to OBPM.
Overall OWS/48:
MJ .175
LBJ .165
OWS
MJ 149.9
LBJ 165.7
OFFENSIVE Advanced stats in Regular Season:
Graphs
5/x
Graphs
5/x
MJ, LBJ: RS DEFENSIVE Adv stats
LEFT Chart sorted by DBPM:
As with OBPM, MJ tends to have the highest (9 of 15) and lowest (4 of 6).
Overall DBPM:
MJ 2.0
LBJ 1.8
RIGHT Chart sorted by DWS/48
Similar distribution as DBPM
Overall DWS/48:
MJ .075
LBJ .070
6/x
LEFT Chart sorted by DBPM:
As with OBPM, MJ tends to have the highest (9 of 15) and lowest (4 of 6).
Overall DBPM:
MJ 2.0
LBJ 1.8
RIGHT Chart sorted by DWS/48
Similar distribution as DBPM
Overall DWS/48:
MJ .075
LBJ .070
6/x
DEFENSIVE Advanced stats in Regular Season:
Graphs
7/x
Graphs
7/x
Combined Advanced stats in REGULAR SEASON
LEFT to RIGHT, sorted by:
PER
WS
WS/48
BPM
VORP
Again, MJ holds more highest & lowest scores, with LBJ more consistent.
Again, MJ's worse yrs tend to be:
1985: Rookie
1995: Return from baseball
1998: Last yr w/ Bulls
2002, 2003: Wizards
LEFT to RIGHT, sorted by:
PER
WS
WS/48
BPM
VORP
Again, MJ holds more highest & lowest scores, with LBJ more consistent.
Again, MJ's worse yrs tend to be:
1985: Rookie
1995: Return from baseball
1998: Last yr w/ Bulls
2002, 2003: Wizards
Combined Advanced stats in REGULAR SEASON
Graphs:
WS
WS/48
BPM
VORP
9/x
Graphs:
WS
WS/48
BPM
VORP
9/x
This continues my thread comparing the advanced stats of Jordan and LeBron.
10/x
10/x
Jordan vs. LeBron
@CediFanClubCEO
@HunidLikeWilt
@LeaguePasshole
@WestFanClubCEO
@BobPettitFanCEO
@TAizenberg
@datafox21
@GameExamined
@MjsGoat
@Prime_LeBron23
@LeShrek_
@Vitricate
11/x
@CediFanClubCEO
@HunidLikeWilt
@LeaguePasshole
@WestFanClubCEO
@BobPettitFanCEO
@TAizenberg
@datafox21
@GameExamined
@MjsGoat
@Prime_LeBron23
@LeShrek_
@Vitricate
11/x
REGULAR SEASON stats:
I've heard that MJ had a higher peak & was better on average, but that LeBron moves ahead if we include longevity. I tended to agree with this.
But I also thought that MJ's peak & average were not really that much higher. This thread has made me re-think.
I've heard that MJ had a higher peak & was better on average, but that LeBron moves ahead if we include longevity. I tended to agree with this.
But I also thought that MJ's peak & average were not really that much higher. This thread has made me re-think.
This thread has shown that MJ had better best seasons and worse worst seasons. LBJ has been more consistent.
But let's look closely at MJ's worse seasons.
13/x
But let's look closely at MJ's worse seasons.
13/x
MJ's worst seasons (from worst to less worse):
2003: Wizards age 39 (turned 40)
2002: Wizards age 38
1995: Partial season after returning from baseball
1998: last season w/ Bulls age 34-35
1985: rookie season
(He was played well in 1986, but missed most of season w/ injury.)
2003: Wizards age 39 (turned 40)
2002: Wizards age 38
1995: Partial season after returning from baseball
1998: last season w/ Bulls age 34-35
1985: rookie season
(He was played well in 1986, but missed most of season w/ injury.)
Except rookie yr, MJ's worst yrs came from his unwise decisions based on ego.
Returning to Wizards at 38 after 3 years off was unwise.
Coming back in-season after 1.5 years off in 1995 was unwise. Should have waited until 1996.
1998 was plus overall but could have retired in 97.
Returning to Wizards at 38 after 3 years off was unwise.
Coming back in-season after 1.5 years off in 1995 was unwise. Should have waited until 1996.
1998 was plus overall but could have retired in 97.
Let's remove MJ's 1995, 1998, 2002, & 2003. If you do this, you find that MJ moves pretty far ahead of LBJ in average advanced stats.
1985 (rookie) and 1986 (injured) are really only MJ yrs below average.
MJ's average rank is 10 for WS & 11 for all others
LBJ's: 18 WS, 17 other
1985 (rookie) and 1986 (injured) are really only MJ yrs below average.
MJ's average rank is 10 for WS & 11 for all others
LBJ's: 18 WS, 17 other
I'm convinced that MJ was better than LBJ in peak & average in advanced stats in REGULAR SEASON.
You can still argue MJ should be held accountable for unwise decisions to play.
You can argue that LBJ's overall career was better (although his decline phase hasn't happened yet).
You can still argue MJ should be held accountable for unwise decisions to play.
You can argue that LBJ's overall career was better (although his decline phase hasn't happened yet).
PLAYOFFS:
Like in regular season, MJ leads by slight margins in proficiency stats (except DBPM).
Like RS, LBJ leads in cumulative stats, WS and VORP, and by a not-small margin.
Like RS, both players have amazing advanced stats! These guys are GOAT 1 and GOAT 1a in some order.
Like in regular season, MJ leads by slight margins in proficiency stats (except DBPM).
Like RS, LBJ leads in cumulative stats, WS and VORP, and by a not-small margin.
Like RS, both players have amazing advanced stats! These guys are GOAT 1 and GOAT 1a in some order.
OFFENSIVE ADVANCED STATS: PLAYOFFS
MJ slightly ahead in Off stats.
But LBJ's 2009 probably best off PO ever.
MJ has more higher & lower, w/ 1995 one of lower.
OBPM: MJ ave rank 10.6, LBJ 16.0
OWS/48: MJ 13.3, LBJ 13.5
OWS: LBJ 11.1, MJ 15.4. But mainly bc LBJ w/ more MP.
MJ slightly ahead in Off stats.
But LBJ's 2009 probably best off PO ever.
MJ has more higher & lower, w/ 1995 one of lower.
OBPM: MJ ave rank 10.6, LBJ 16.0
OWS/48: MJ 13.3, LBJ 13.5
OWS: LBJ 11.1, MJ 15.4. But mainly bc LBJ w/ more MP.
DEFENSIVE ADVANCED STATS in PLAYOFFS
Like O advanced stats, D are pretty close, too.
Despite MJ's D reputation, LBJ slightly ahead in D stats.
DPBM: LBJ ave rank 12.2, MJ 14.5
DWS/48: LBJ 13.2, MJ 13.5
DWS: LBJ 11.2, MJ 14.2
Like O advanced stats, D are pretty close, too.
Despite MJ's D reputation, LBJ slightly ahead in D stats.
DPBM: LBJ ave rank 12.2, MJ 14.5
DWS/48: LBJ 13.2, MJ 13.5
DWS: LBJ 11.2, MJ 14.2
ADVANCED STATS IN POs
MJ is ahead in:
PER
OWS/48
DWS/48
WS/48
OBPM
BPM
These are all proficiency stats.
LBJ is ahead in:
OWS
DWS
WS
DBPM
VORP
Except for DPBM, these are all cumulative stats.
MJ is ahead in:
PER
OWS/48
DWS/48
WS/48
OBPM
BPM
These are all proficiency stats.
LBJ is ahead in:
OWS
DWS
WS
DBPM
VORP
Except for DPBM, these are all cumulative stats.
COMBINED ADVANCED STATS in PLAYOFFS
Average ranks:
BPM
MJ 11.5
LBJ 15.4
VORP
MJ 14.2
LBJ 11.8
WS
MJ 15.1
LBJ 11.4
WS/48
MJ 12.3
LBJ 11.9
PER
MJ 13.1
LBJ 13.5
Average ranks:
BPM
MJ 11.5
LBJ 15.4
VORP
MJ 14.2
LBJ 11.8
WS
MJ 15.1
LBJ 11.4
WS/48
MJ 12.3
LBJ 11.9
PER
MJ 13.1
LBJ 13.5
Top 10 POs based on PROFICIENCY (BPM, WS/48, PER):
LBJ 2009
MJ 1991
MJ 1990
LBJ 2018
LBJ 2012
MJ 1993
MJ 1989
LBJ 2014
LBJ 2016
LBJ 2017
LBJ 2009
MJ 1991
MJ 1990
LBJ 2018
LBJ 2012
MJ 1993
MJ 1989
LBJ 2014
LBJ 2016
LBJ 2017
Bottom 10 POs based on PROFICIENCY:
Worst to less worse:
LBJ 2006
LBJ 2011
MJ 1995
LBJ 2015
LBJ 2007
MJ 1985
LBJ 2008
MJ 1992
MJ 1997
MJ 1998
Both rookie years make list.
Two infamous PO make it: LBJ 2011 & MJ 1995.
LBJ's 2015 (shooting %) & 2007 also seen as underachieving.
Worst to less worse:
LBJ 2006
LBJ 2011
MJ 1995
LBJ 2015
LBJ 2007
MJ 1985
LBJ 2008
MJ 1992
MJ 1997
MJ 1998
Both rookie years make list.
Two infamous PO make it: LBJ 2011 & MJ 1995.
LBJ's 2015 (shooting %) & 2007 also seen as underachieving.
Top 10 POs based on CUMULATIVE (VORP):
LeBron 2018
LeBron 2012
LeBron 2013
LeBron 2009
Jordan 1991
LeBron 2016
Jordan 1998
Jordan 1993
Jordan 1996
Jordan 1992
LeBron tended to play more games and MP, so this favors him. But 2009 he didn't even make Finals and still # 4!
LeBron 2018
LeBron 2012
LeBron 2013
LeBron 2009
Jordan 1991
LeBron 2016
Jordan 1998
Jordan 1993
Jordan 1996
Jordan 1992
LeBron tended to play more games and MP, so this favors him. But 2009 he didn't even make Finals and still # 4!
Top 10 POs based on all 5 stats: BPM, VORP, WS, WS/48, PER:
1) LBJ 2009
2) MJ 1991
3) LBJ 2018
4) LBJ 2012
5) MJ 1990
6) MJ 1993
7) LBJ 2016
8) LBJ 2013
9) LBJ 2014
10) MJ 1989
1) LBJ 2009
2) MJ 1991
3) LBJ 2018
4) LBJ 2012
5) MJ 1990
6) MJ 1993
7) LBJ 2016
8) LBJ 2013
9) LBJ 2014
10) MJ 1989
1) LBJ 2009
Amazing! Ranks best of all 26 of MJ & LBJ's PO seasons in OBPM, DBPM, OWS/48, DWS/48, PER.
But Cavs lost in ECF
2) MJ 1991
MJ's first ring. Beats Magic & Lakers in Finals
3) LBJ 2018
LBJ takes untalented Cavs all the way to Finals
4) LBJ 2012
LBJ's first ring
Amazing! Ranks best of all 26 of MJ & LBJ's PO seasons in OBPM, DBPM, OWS/48, DWS/48, PER.
But Cavs lost in ECF
2) MJ 1991
MJ's first ring. Beats Magic & Lakers in Finals
3) LBJ 2018
LBJ takes untalented Cavs all the way to Finals
4) LBJ 2012
LBJ's first ring
5) MJ 1990
MJ great, but Bulls lose ECF to Pistons
6) MJ 1993
Third straight ring. Averaged 41.0, 8.5, 6.3 in Finals
7) LBJ 2016
Wins ring w/ upset over 73-9 Warriors
8) LBJ 2013
Second title w/ Heat
9) LBJ 2014
Lose to Spurs in Finals
10) MJ 1989
Lose to Pistons in ECF
MJ great, but Bulls lose ECF to Pistons
6) MJ 1993
Third straight ring. Averaged 41.0, 8.5, 6.3 in Finals
7) LBJ 2016
Wins ring w/ upset over 73-9 Warriors
8) LBJ 2013
Second title w/ Heat
9) LBJ 2014
Lose to Spurs in Finals
10) MJ 1989
Lose to Pistons in ECF
Summation:
Teammates:
MJ's mates were great or bad. The 6 great yrs won titles.
LBJ's mates tended to be mediocre to good. Because of this, LBJ usually took worse teams to the 9 Finals than MJ did in his 6.
If they switched places, MJ probably would have 3-4 rings & LBJ 5.
Teammates:
MJ's mates were great or bad. The 6 great yrs won titles.
LBJ's mates tended to be mediocre to good. Because of this, LBJ usually took worse teams to the 9 Finals than MJ did in his 6.
If they switched places, MJ probably would have 3-4 rings & LBJ 5.
Individual stats:
MJ leads in proficiency stats in both RS & PO.
LBJ leads in cumulative stats in RS & PO.
MJ had higher peak and higher average in RS.
PO is closer: Top performances 6-4 LBJ. But LBJ had more of the worst PO performances, 4 of bottom 5.
MJ leads in proficiency stats in both RS & PO.
LBJ leads in cumulative stats in RS & PO.
MJ had higher peak and higher average in RS.
PO is closer: Top performances 6-4 LBJ. But LBJ had more of the worst PO performances, 4 of bottom 5.
