Okay, so we all know how sometimes the line of defense for some MJ stans when all else fails is to mention his sales figures, how many high-grossing tours he did, and of course the infamous number of awards he won over the years, they always tend to exaggerate. (1/?)

In recent months, we've seen a poster going up about MJ again selling over 1 billion records while winning 858 awards or some mess. It was something that got trended late last year by Chris Brown on his Instagram post. Well needless to say, I think y'all been hoodwinked. (2/?)

Now to answer the question: wasn't Michael Jackson at one point the biggest pop star on the planet? Easy answer: Yes. But how big are we talking especially as it relates to our world today, which is much different than when he debuted as the Jackson 5 front man in 1969. (3/?)

So for this thread, I'll break down actual facts of his actual sales for his albums, singles, and music videos/DVDs first, then break down tour figures and how recent tour stats have actually dwarfed his, and how that wild number of 858 awards just doesn't exist. (4/?)

So starting off, how big were his sibling group the Jackson 5? Well we have to look at the context of the times. The Jackson 5 made their professional debut in January 1968 on a song called "Big Boy" that became a hit in the Gary, East Chicago and Chicago areas. (5/?)

After much push from singers such as Gladys Knight and Bobby Taylor and after seeing the now famous audition tape, Berry Gordy signed the Jacksons, first in July of 1968 and then in March 1969 after working out a contract release. (6/?)

After signing them, Gordy's plan was to make the five boys, especially its multi-talented frontman, the new face of the Sound of Young America, aka Hitsville USA, aka Motown, after the Supremes had reigned for so long. (7/?)

Motown wanted a big buzz around the J5 so after having departing Supreme Diana Ross be credited with their discovery, Gordy had his team of writers pen a group of songs that he wanted to make sure would not only become hits but would make history. (8/?)

This led to the release of "I Want You Back", which came out in October 69 and took less than 3 months to reach the top of the Hot 100. Its first album, released in December, "Diana Ross Presents the Jackson 5", peaked at number 5 on the Billboard 200. Impressive, right? (9/?)

Now you ask what type of label Motown was? Well except for a selected few acts, Motown and most other labels rely on the singles, not albums. Most only focused on big singles while albums were treated as secondary. This was always the tradition in Motown. (10/?)

The Supremes had proved to be an exception to the rule as their albums were just as successful as their hit singles. For the J5's first album, only "I Want You Back" was ever released as a single and it was a big hit for sure, but it only stayed for one week at #1. (11/?)

So according to its Wikipedia article, DRPTJ5 reportedly sold an estimated 5 million copies worldwide. Album sales in that time period, it was never huge album sales for most acts. Its chart positions certainly would put that figure under question. (12/?)

In that same Wiki article, its chart positions were as followed:
#5 US Billboard 200
#10 Canada
#16 UK
#17 Australia

While impressive for an MOTOWN album in 1969-70, I don't see how from just four charts how 5 million was even possible? (13/?)

I can only guess that in the US and Canada, sales there were bigger than in the other two countries. According to some guesses, the album could've done anywhere between 600,000-800,000 in the U.S., there is no way from just those sales that this album did 5m. (14/?)

It's actually hard to pinpoint its actual sales, but judging on the album only spanning one hit single, I'll say it probably was close on one million copies sold worldwide, at best. Now let's move to their second album, "ABC", released in May of 1970. (15/?)

What ABC had over DRPTJ5 is that it launched two number one singles, "ABC" and "The Love You Save". Both of which spent two weeks each at #1 on the Hot 100. So therefore album figures should be healthy, right? Well you'll be in for a shock. (16/?)

According to its chart figures, "ABC" did a little better than DRPTJ5, peaking at No. 4 on the Billboard 200 so its chart positions should be better here, right? Well...

#22 UK
#85 Japan
#25 Canada
#14 Australia

Wait what? (17/?)

It actually peaked lower than the first album in the UK and Canada and a little better in Australia. Yet Wikipedia brings in this ridiculous number: 5.7 million. Of course it's written that this was an overly exaggerated number and I agree 'cause there's no way. (18/?)

If I have to guess U.S. sales figures, it's probably between 700,000-900,000 at best. It could be in the middle for a conservative figure (same with the first album) but again these are just guesses but it depends on how long these albums stayed on the chart. (19/?)

But it sure proves so far that Motown was more focused on singles than albums. That said, the chart positions for the historic three J5 singles are a little disappointing. So I'm guessing their singles sales are not as well known or just imagined. (20/?)

Moving to "The Third Album", the J5 launch their fourth and final number one with the ballad "I'll Be There", which becomes their longest-running number one at 5 weeks on the Hot 100. Now with this album, clearly the J5 would just be selling albums like hot cakes, right? (21/?)

Well Wikipedia is telling me this album sold some 6 million copies worldwide. Problem is the chart positions are only showing up for North American countries. And there, the album peaked at #9 in Canada and #4 in the U.S. So where did they get six million??? (22/?)

Another problem I have is many have claimed I'll Be There was Motown's best-selling single ever at one point. Some 5 million copies sold. That sounds amazing until you see the chart positions elsewhere:

#4 UK
#18 NZ
#31 AUS
#14 IRE
#16 NETH.
#45 GERMANY

There is no way! (23/?)

I could conclude IBT was the J5's best-selling single to date, but I would have to wonder how much. Remember, until 1977, Motown failed to send its recordings to a RIAA sales audit so we really have no way of knowing the truth but its positions don't give me confidence. (24/?)

And judging on its global chart positions, there is no way this song, as popular as it was, outsold singles by the Supremes or Marvin Gaye's "I Heard It Through the Grapevine". (25/?)

Impressive for its time considering the J5 were a black vocal group who got farther than some other acts, but the Monkees outsold them. I bet you they did. The Third Album launched a #2 hit "Mama's Pearl" and I guess this is technically when the J5 hit their peak. (26/?)

So far, we have three albums that all reached the top five. So what about their Christmas album that came out a little after "The Third Album"? Wiki says 3.5 million. But I only see a chart position in Canada. (27/?)

It's kinda telling that because Motown and Universal have no idea how much pre-1977 Motown albums and singles actually sold, biographies have to come up with sales figures and we can't even confirm it. This album supposedly became a collector's item. (28/?)

Now what about their post-peak albums? "Maybe Tomorrow", their follow-up came five months later and we hit a peak of #11 on the Billboard 200 with one top 5 hit (Never Can Say Goodbye) and a top 20 bomb (title track), but Wiki says 3.5 million??? (29/?)

As I already stated, Motown was a singles label. The last focus they had were on actual albums. Most albums included filler tunes in those days just to fill in for the hit single. The J5 were beginning to struggle around this time despite NCSG becoming successful. (30/?)

1971's live album, "Goin' Back to Indiana" claims 2 million but no chart position? How can we even believe that figure if we don't have chart positions? We can't just take every sales figure we see. (31/?)

Their first Greatest Hits set at the end of '71 peaked in these countries:
#12 US
#23 UK
#40 Canada

Yet its page boasts that it sold 6 million copies worldwide. Again, a ridiculous figure and also the second time the J5 had failed to crack the top 10. (32/?)

It launched "Sugar Daddy", which only peaked at #10. Again, sounds like the Jacksons are heading into sales fatigue. And this is when Motown begins releasing MJ's first solo material. (33/?)

More on Motown solo MJ later, meanwhile the Jackson 5 keep going downhill. The album "Looking Through the Windows", released in 1972 actually returns them to the top 10 on the Billboard 200 at #7 with chart positions elsewhere at #16 in Canada and the UK. (34/?)

If I have to guess the reason for this? It might be the release of "Doctor My Eyes", which actually did well for them in the UK going to #9 and the title track and Little Bitty Pretty One hit the top 20 here. Yet, I doubt its sales figures were 3.5 million?! (35/?)

But alas, this is below the J5's heights and their position worsens with 1973's "Skywriter", which only peaks at #44 (also correct., the Christmas Album only peaked at #53 so I'm guessing Jackson fatigue was indeed settling in, you can't oversaturate the market like that). (36/?)

Also #60 in Canada and #41 in Australia, let's see what Wikipedia has for its sales figures: 2.8 million worldwide?

With those sales figures? I know albums were at a better position to sell, but this album was a flop. I wonder if Jackson archivists lie as much as Sony? (37/?)

"Skywriter" also doesn't launch any real hit ("Corner of the Sky" and the much lower "Hallelujah Day" didn't actually set the charts afire in 1973 in the age of "Superstition", "Touch Me in the Morning" and "Let's Get It On". (38/?)

Their second 1973 album, "G.I.T.: Get It Together", did even worse, peaking at just #100 on the Billboard 200 and never charting overseas. Yet somehow Wikipedia again lies and says this album somehow sold 2 million worldwide? (39/?)

1974's "Dancing Machine" reached #16 on the BB200, benefiting from some say, the surprise success of the Grammy-nominated title track, originally featured on GIT (#2 pop). Its follow-ups, "Whatever You Got, I Want" and "I Am Love" don't do much. Wiki: 2.6 million? (40/?)

At this point, it's hard to take these supposed sales seriously. I would think it was a guess at best. Their last Motown album, "Moving Violation" tanked as well, only going as high as #36 on the Billboard 200. Wikipedia claims 1.6 million. Now why make this stuff up? (41/?)

In the United Kingdom, sales figures for albums are usually broken down like this:
Silver is 60,000
Gold is 100,000
Platinum is 300,000

And so on and so on. Australia's gold is 35k, platinum is 70k. Here in America, 500k is gold. 1m is platinum. (42/?)

If all 11 Jackson 5 albums that were released sold over a million worldwide, sales figures from the UK, Australia, Canada, and the U.S. wouldn't have really made the difference and even if they were hot collectors items, it's impossible for their flops to do that well. (43/?)

I could conclude based off Motown sales that their WW#'s were probably at best like this:
DRPTJ5: 0.9-1.5 million
ABC: 1 million
3rd: <1 million (roughly 0.8 million)
Christmas: 1 million roughly
MT: Around 500k (or 0.5m)
SKY: Way less than 500k
GIT: Less than 300k (cont/44?)

DM: Around 450k (most of it in the U.S.)
MV: Less than 200k or worse (this album came out around the time they left the label for CBS)
LTTW: Around 460k
GH: 1 million

I actually could be exaggerating on DRPTJ5, so I'd put it around less than 600k worldwide. (45/?)

It's all a guess on this end, but I can probably estimate the J5 sold around maybe 5-6 million for liberal figures. Conservatively, I'd break it down between 3-5 million globally altogether. Surely less impressive than these numbers they were boasting. (46/?)

After leaving Motown, they became the Jacksons, replaced Jermaine with Randy and signed with CBS, who first assigns them to Philadelphia International. The Jacksons do okay with their debut of the same name in 1976, going gold. At the time, gold actually equaled 1m. (47/?)

But with just one big hit, another middle-sized one, it's not actually a commercial return to form and their 1977 follow-up "Goin' Places" does even worse, selling way less than 500,000 copies. (48/?)

For a band that in the '80s bragged they sold 100 million records when their little brother was selling a lot of records, they're not really proving their case here. (49/?)

The future seemed dim for the Jacksons until the release of their first Epic album, "Destiny", which peaked at #11 pop and spawns the top 10 hit "Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)" Sales figures pick back up: they go platinum as do SYB. But not a mammoth seller. (50/?)

In fact, bands such as the Isley Brothers, the O'Jays and Earth, Wind & Fire actually sold more albums than the Jackson 5 were doing at this time and as MJ restarted his solo career, they were gonna have a harder time to keep up. (51/?)

Their 1980 follow-up "Triumph" peaked at #10 and went platinum. Good, but that 7-plus million in the US from a certain member's "Off the Wall" dwarfs them completely. However, it definitely was more successful than any of their Motown releases, going gold in the UK. (52/?)

A live album comes out in 1981 that only goes gold here reaching only #30 in the US. Three years later, they come out with 1984's Victory, which coincided with their tour of the same name, the last to feature MJ and Randy. (53/?)

Victory is the only album where chart positions were actually healthy for the band. The only album where they have numerous top 10/5 entries and #1 in Canada and Finland. Oddly enough it's not #1 in the U.S. only peaking at #4. Yes, the Jacksons never had a #1 album. (54/?)

So what does Wiki say about chart figures? 7 million.

Hmm hard to believe that one. According to the RIAA, "Victory" was only certfied 2x platinum. In Canada, it was certified 2x platinum for over 200,000 copies. And in the UK, only sold over 100,000 copies. (55/?)

Judging on those figures, I can only get up to 2.3 million copies worldwide. One of the biggest markets in global music is Japan yet it only reached #5. We have no idea about its sales figures. For Victory to do 7 million, it would've had to have done better than it did. (56/?)

As far as confirmed album sales post-Motown:

The Jacksons: 1m (gold; never updated to platinum so I wonder its real sales figures)
Enjoy Yourself: Less than 300k
Destiny: 1m US only
Triumph: 1.1 m (just on US and UK figures)
Live: 500k
Victory: 2.3m (57/?)

This brings a whopping total of... 5.7 million albums worldwide, plus a possible 3-4 million albums from the Motown days. Roughly 9 million albums worldwide. Not impressive at all if you believe the family's ridiculous claims of 100m copies. (58/?)

It's better than most R&B-oriented groups but not exactly what fans were led to believe. As for their singles, I'm guessing probably 5-10 million singles worldwide, at best. It's hard to really count. I wouldn't count Chartmasters' claims to be fair either. (59/?)

But even 5-10 million seems off the mark for singles so like I said, it's hard to figure out. Maybe about 14-15 million records worldwide. And that's due to them being inconsistent over a 15-year period. (60/?)

Moving on to MJ albums.
Got to Be There, first. Chart positions for the album were:

#14 Billboard 200
#37 UK
#121 France

Yet Wiki claims a ridiculous 3.2 million. (61/?)

In America and the UK at least, GTBT benefited off three hit singles, including two in the top 5. No idea how long this stayed on the charts but apparently after the Soundscan era, it did well enough to be certified gold. Its early WW figures are simply unreliable. (62/?)

Whatever the sales, it's way less than 1 million, judging on chart figures. It wasn't too successful. Album #2, "Ben", benefiting off the Oscar-nominated ballad of the same name, claims 5 million but chart positions don't lie:
#5 BB200
#17 UK
#162 France

60k sales in UK. (63/?)

There's definitely no way Ben did 5 million, based on the chart positions. And it's less sought after to this day. Music & Me and Forever Michael did even worse on the charts yet MJ archivists are erroneously claiming 2 and 1m WW. (64/?)

Especially as I said before, Motown was a singles label, they were only starting to put a focus on albums in the 1970s and at this stage in his life, MJ had yet to be an albums artist. Of course this would change at the end of the decade. (65/?)

In 1979, Jackson teamed up with Quincy to release the album, "Off the Wall". It started Jackson's pop music domination with claimed sales of 22 million copies by the early millennium but did it really??? (66/?)

This is the sales/certifications for OTW according to Wiki:
8m (US)
1.971m (UK)
50k (SWI)
90k (NZ)
100k (NL)
500k (JPN)
50k (ITA - 2009)
10k (HK)
500k (GER)
300k (FRA)
300k (CAN)
50k (AUT)
350k (AUS)

Pretty impressive, right? Let's calculate. (67/?)

Total numbers based on certifications are 12,271,000. "Wait what? Where's the other 10 million?" You may be asking. Well breaking down, labels have this thing where they exaggerate sales due to hype for themselves, not necessarily the artist so it blows up. (68/?)

It would be fair to use actual sales figures for albums but no one does that. But if you thought that was something, wait until I break down...that follow-up... (69/?)

Thriller. The album. The myth. The legend. The one where its sales exaggerations are itself legendary. So let's just get this out the way: it IS the best-selling album of all time. Worldwide, that is. Now with that out of the way. Was it 50 million? 55m? 100m?! HWG! (70/?)

WARNING: some of these figures are suspect due to what is hailed as their "best-selling" albums but here we go, breaking down its actual figures:

US: 30/33m
UK: 4.47m
SWI: 300k
SWE: 400k
SK: 50k
SA: 120k
POR: 50k
NZ: 180k
NL: 1.4m (?)
MEX: 1.6m
LAT: 153k
YUGO: 112k (cont/71/?)

JPN: 2.5m (yet only certified gold)
ITA: 200k
ISR: 80k
IND: 100k (claimed)
HK: 50k
GER: 1.5m
FRA: 3.545m
FIN: 129k
DEN: 40k (no idea what it did b4 streaming)
CAN: 2.4m
BRA: 1.5m (claimed)
BEL: 300k (claimed)
AUT: 400k
AUS: 1.15n
ARG: 500k (72/?)

So taking away the 33m combined album sales + everything else from the U.S. and calculating with the 30m figure, its sales rounded up to around 53,229,000. WITH 33m, it rounds up to 56,229,000 copies. More than 50m but less than 66m and WAY less than 100m! (cont)

So how come Guinness says 66m, Sony claimed the ridiculous 100m? It's likely this album has caught on to the countries where it was popular. You also have to remember at the time of its release, why music consumption had grown, it was less than it is now. (74/?)

Thriller was released in 1982, the Soviet Union was still around so it's likely that no legit copies of this album were being sold in any of these countries. And even post-Soviet Union, few countries have sold this album and it wouldn't bring its total to 66m anyway. (75/?)

Again, we're told a lie about sales figures, like we know the shit's big but don't make it bigger than it is! So where does that lead the other albums? It's gonna be a massive drop lol (76/?)

Bad came nearly five years later in 1987 amidst a lot of changes to MJ's reputation, from music god to slowly but surely a tabloid celebrity. At one point, it was considered the second best-selling album ever. Epic claims 45 million sales of the album. What did it do? (77/?)

US: 10m
UK: 4.14m
SWI: 100k
SWE: 200k
SPN: 300k
POR: 20k
NOR: 100k
NZ: 135k
NL: 500k
MEX: 350k
LAT: 126k
JPN: 1m
ITA: 1m
ISR: 20k
IND: 200k
HK: 20k
GER: 2m
FRA: 1.483m
FIN: 51k
DEN: 100k
CAN: 700k
AUT: 200k
AUS: 420k (78/?)

Remember, this is based off its certs so don't get mad when I calculate it.

Total sales are around... 23,165,000 copies WW.

Hmm, not 45m, not even close to 30m. It doesn't round out to 25m, Bad's actual sales are about what is claimed for OTW. (79/?)

Again, people just love to claim lies and we have Sony again fooling fans and the public again to hype up its sales total to be more extraordinary than it really was. What the first three albums are showing is how mammoth a seller MJ was but surely less than it's claimed. (80/?)

After Bad came Dangerous, which claimed 30-32 million. Again, that seemed somewhat fair... except... well let's break it down here:

8m (US)
2m (UK)
300k (THAI) (claimed)
250k (SWI)
300k (SWE)
600k (SPN)
80k (POR)
300k (NL)
600k (MEX)
175k (MAL)
400k (JPN)
650k (ITA) (cont/81/?)

40k (ISR)
500k (INDO)
2m (GER)
2m (FRA)
61k (FIN)
125k (CHI)
600k (CAN)
350k (BRA)
200k (AUT)
700k (AUS)
90k (NZ) (82/?)

Total sales are... a whopping 20,321,000 copies. Way less than the 32 million they were claiming. Impressive but again it goes to show you that the emperor just won't admit there was a breeze when he showed himself to the audience. (83/?)

Now here's the real doozy: what did HIStory actually sell? What counts? Fans make it hard to be very speculative but we know the U.S. is the only country you could double its certification. So if an album was certified 4x platinum, it just did 2. Let's break it down. (84/?)

US: 4m (3.5m actual sales)
UK: 1.2m
GER: 1.5m
FRA: 1.5m
SWI: 150k
SWE: 100k
SPN: 300k
SK: 300k (claimed)
POL: 100k
NOR: 50k
NZ: 15k
AUS: 560k
ARG: 60k
BEL: 250k
AUT: 100k
BRA: 100k
CAN: 500k
COL: 150k
DEN: 500k (no idea actual sales)
FIN: 61k (85/?)

ITA: 50k
JPN: 400k
MEX: 100k
NL: 300k

Total sales are a little underwhelming: 12,346,000. Which is almost exactly the number OTW sold. Where's the other 8 million? Don't exist. Take away Denmark and the 0.5m additional U.S. units and this is the total: 11,346,000. (86/?)

Epic claimed 20 million. 11/12 million actually was the number. Even if we were to add the extra 4 million, we couldn't because that's cheating anyway. And it wouldn't even round out to 20m anyway. But this is on its Wiki so people repeat it. (87/?)

In addition, the so-called "best selling remix album ever", MJ's "Blood on the Dance Floor", only sold around 2.8 million while the Beatles' "Love" actually sold over 5 million worldwide yet Epic still claims 6 million for BOTDF. (88/?)

Now we break down one of the biggest flops in music history: Invincible. MJ's last attempt at a hurrah, released in 2001. After its release, he tried to brag about the album selling 13 million, since his death, Sony claimed 6m. What did it actually do? (89/?)

US: 2m
UK: 300k
FRA: 683k
GER: 300k
AUS: 140k
NZ: 7.5k
SWI: 40k
SWE: 40k
SPN: 100k
SA: 100k
POL: 50k
NOR: 50k
NL: 80k
JPN: 200k
ITA: 50k
FIN: 10k
DEN: 25k
BEL: 50k
AUT: 20k

Now judging on these figures, what did it do? Get ready... (90/?)

Total sales: 2,445,500 copies. That's it. 2 million actual copies worldwide. MUCH less than 6 million. 13 million was laughable but 6 million is also laughable in the long run. 2m off an album that cost $30 million to make. OUCH. (91/?)

Just based on the six studio albums and the remix album, MJ sold 129,674,500 copies. Even when you calculate his Motown, it wouldn't get past 129k. And I haven't even added the compilations yet! But we see here how exaggeration works. Reality is stranger than fiction. (92/?)

If we add the compilations:
1.16m from UK compilations
1.135m from HIStory Greatest Hits Vol. 1
Number Ones: 9,238,000 WW
240k from TUC
Essential: 4,376,290 WW
135k from one comp
2.307m from KOP
375k from The Collection

18,966,290 from compilations. Rounds out to 148m. (93/?)

Then we have the three posthumous CDs:

This Is It: 3,759,460
Michael: 1,673,000
Xscape: 1,332,724

6,765,184 from these adding all up to around 173m albums only. Even if you add 50m singles and about 9 million from music videos, you'll get 232m at best. Not 350m. LOL (94/?)

And I'm gonna have to end it here because this shit took too long but I hope at least you learn fact from fiction. I'll break down the awards another time. (End)