Since we're talking about games using violence to tell stories about the effects of violence...

It's weird to see SOTL described as "moralizing" because tbh the story never struck me as particularly deep. Inartful & clunky, sure, especially in hindsight. But the idea that unquestioningly killing everyone you meet would mess you up seemed... obvious?

It's still a little absurd to me that it was met with mindblown.gif in 2012, but okay.

I know some people say the white phosphorus scene should have been a choice. I guess they think the message would have been stronger? I honestly don't know. Because, like... if it had been a choice, everything after that would have been a different game.

And by "different game" I mean in the "Can we please have millions of more dollars and years of dev time?" sense. The game was about the MC's mental break CAUSED by that moment. Removing the moment by adding choice = Adding a 2nd story to the game.

Also, that story would have been:

"Whew, I'm glad we didn't accidentally kill all these innocent people. I feel like we made the right choice. Now lets keep killing US soldiers who have been led astray by the one person they believed they could trust."

Not as strong, IMO.

ALSO also, the lack of choice is the point. If you won't even think about the lack of choice in the hours of combat sandwiching that one scene (and every other game), then we'll make you think about choice by taking it away during one crucial moment.

I guess that might be moralizing a bit. But hey, it's what we could do at the 10th hour. Not perfect, but what is?

Was there a point to this thread? I feel like I had one when I started, but it must have slipped away.

I feel like we don't publicly examine our past work enough, so lets say that was the point and run with it.

If SOTL had never been released, would I want to make that same game today? No, I don't think so. I was 25-30 during development. I'm 38 now. I'm different. The world is different. I want to see and make different things.

But the fact is that violence is a constraint of working in the AAA space. Unless there's a major design leap, then we only really have three options: pretend violence doesn't matter, acknowledge that it does, or embrace and relish in it.

And let's be honest. For the most part, you - the audience - seem okay with that. And that's okay! If you're okay, we're okay (and most importantly, our bills are paid).

But if someone were to hand me a studio tomorrow, I think I'd want to take a shot at that next design leap.

Not because game violence is bad or wrong or whatever. But because why not? Just open that door a little wider so a couple new story types can fit through.

I think that'd be fun.

Anyway. I'm done rambling. And that's honestly all this was. Not subtweeting anyone. Just thinking out-loud.

Imma go eat some cupcakes now.

Since this thread is getting passed around, I want to add that it’s not directly about anything in TLOU2. I haven’t played it yet. Looking forward to it. But the discourse around it keeps bringing up SOTL so it got me thinking about the past.

Now more cupcakes.