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Okay so if anyone is interested: thread of my thoughts on the phenomenal conversation on the WTF podcast
Disclaimer: please also read the transcript or listen to the pod as well 1 its good 2 theres a lot of context that clips miss especially cause this is mostly what i took away
Disclaimer: please also read the transcript or listen to the pod as well 1 its good 2 theres a lot of context that clips miss especially cause this is mostly what i took away
First things first: I went into this with a grain of salt and realistic expectations
CS is STILL under contract and a professional. Hes not going to shit on Tros in anyway. Full stop.
He also got the risky Qs in advance so yes Disney looked over that. Basic press prep
CS is STILL under contract and a professional. Hes not going to shit on Tros in anyway. Full stop.
He also got the risky Qs in advance so yes Disney looked over that. Basic press prep
So lets start on happy notes
Im pretty sure there was a hint about a dyad being in HR. Its around 1h34 where he asks when the last dyad was and (paraphrasing) âif only there was a new set of stories comingâ. He quickly goes into a standard denial but theres some sarcastic +
Im pretty sure there was a hint about a dyad being in HR. Its around 1h34 where he asks when the last dyad was and (paraphrasing) âif only there was a new set of stories comingâ. He quickly goes into a standard denial but theres some sarcastic +
Inflection with his âi dont know anything about HR and I wouldnt tell you if i didâ
(Again keep in mind some questions about HR were cut I believe)
We started theorizing about a dyad in HR back in MARCH https://twitter.com/OutletFangirl/status/1239900782239121411">https://twitter.com/OutletFan...
(Again keep in mind some questions about HR were cut I believe)
We started theorizing about a dyad in HR back in MARCH https://twitter.com/OutletFangirl/status/1239900782239121411">https://twitter.com/OutletFan...
Cool thing #2 the whole conversation about Lord Momin!
CS explains in that Vader arc, the place *isnt* WBW but to him a pure access to the dark side. It is REAL tho bc momin brings his body out of it
Its different/separate but also connected
Anothery theory
https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="â
" title="Fettes weiĂes HĂ€kchen" aria-label="Emoji: Fettes weiĂes HĂ€kchen"> (from FEBRUARY) https://twitter.com/outletfangirl/status/1229980663371177986">https://twitter.com/outletfan...
CS explains in that Vader arc, the place *isnt* WBW but to him a pure access to the dark side. It is REAL tho bc momin brings his body out of it
Its different/separate but also connected
Anothery theory
Now for the heavier shit.
Look Im going to do 2 things in this portion: explain as accurately as i can what CS is saying. Verify yourself if you want to double check. And then how im grappling with it.
If i see this shit getting twisted or pushed out for misinfo im calling out
Look Im going to do 2 things in this portion: explain as accurately as i can what CS is saying. Verify yourself if you want to double check. And then how im grappling with it.
If i see this shit getting twisted or pushed out for misinfo im calling out
Structually Irredeemable
1. This wasnt EVEN CHARLES. It was Dave in the Art lf Tros book
2. Daves quote is also being taken out of context bc antis
Its not: Ben is structually irredeemable
It is: Patricide is structually irredeemable but what if it isnt? Through a mothers love https://twitter.com/outletfangirl/status/1272596104136310785">https://twitter.com/outletfan...
1. This wasnt EVEN CHARLES. It was Dave in the Art lf Tros book
2. Daves quote is also being taken out of context bc antis
Its not: Ben is structually irredeemable
It is: Patricide is structually irredeemable but what if it isnt? Through a mothers love https://twitter.com/outletfangirl/status/1272596104136310785">https://twitter.com/outletfan...
On SW being a Greek Tragedy
NGL really struggled with listening to this and i get the anger with it.
CS essentially argues three things
1. The cosmic force is omnipresent and doesnt care about Heroes just the Greater Good
2. Accepting destiny/force leads to suffering for Heroes
NGL really struggled with listening to this and i get the anger with it.
CS essentially argues three things
1. The cosmic force is omnipresent and doesnt care about Heroes just the Greater Good
2. Accepting destiny/force leads to suffering for Heroes
3. If the story is to continue, happy endings cant last
Basically he says SW in the grand scheme is a Greek Tragedy.
And I get it. I get that the cycism feels weird for us. But i also see that hes not entirely wrong
Basically he says SW in the grand scheme is a Greek Tragedy.
And I get it. I get that the cycism feels weird for us. But i also see that hes not entirely wrong
The idea of heroes being âvesselsâ or suffering for the Greater Good or Fate isnt new. At all.
It gets to a deep debate of humanity. Which is what storytelling is supposed to do: Fate vs Free will. Are they mutually exclusive?
Think about other iconic Heroes and their lives
It gets to a deep debate of humanity. Which is what storytelling is supposed to do: Fate vs Free will. Are they mutually exclusive?
Think about other iconic Heroes and their lives
Harry Potter - lives in a basement, loses so many loved ones, DIES to defeat Voldemort
Percy - loses his mother, his city, his memory, goes through literal hell to save his girlfriend
Being a hero means suffering. How else would we have meaningful conflict? Actual stakes?
Percy - loses his mother, his city, his memory, goes through literal hell to save his girlfriend
Being a hero means suffering. How else would we have meaningful conflict? Actual stakes?
Its not even something new to SW
Lucas came up with the idea for the Whills way back when and intended for them to be a central park of his ST
Even the mortis arc gets to this: Anakin has a vision but his fate as Vader is inescapable, Even Yoda to an extent the Jedi fall is fate
Lucas came up with the idea for the Whills way back when and intended for them to be a central park of his ST
Even the mortis arc gets to this: Anakin has a vision but his fate as Vader is inescapable, Even Yoda to an extent the Jedi fall is fate
Hereâs how I see #1 and #2 that makes me feel better i guess
HP, Percy, Luke even Anakin get a âhappy endingâ a Reward as MC pointed out. And it doesnt feel like Tros got that for us
But even tho it failed, there was a narrative attempt at it so the structure holds (just badly)
HP, Percy, Luke even Anakin get a âhappy endingâ a Reward as MC pointed out. And it doesnt feel like Tros got that for us
But even tho it failed, there was a narrative attempt at it so the structure holds (just badly)
But Charles point imo wasnt, youre doomed forever to misery But that for the story to continue, happy endings/rewards dont last.
Percy: gets the girl saves the city! Then loses his memory and starts a new suffering journey to end in a happy ending (for now)
Percy: gets the girl saves the city! Then loses his memory and starts a new suffering journey to end in a happy ending (for now)
Another example: Luke
Saves his father! And the galaxy! Until he starts a temple and loses his nephew. Sacrifices his life but finds new peace and helps save galaxy again (for now)
So yeah the talk about the cycle being unbroken is totally valid (CS cant criticize tros) but
Saves his father! And the galaxy! Until he starts a temple and loses his nephew. Sacrifices his life but finds new peace and helps save galaxy again (for now)
So yeah the talk about the cycle being unbroken is totally valid (CS cant criticize tros) but
generally expecting the Heroes happiness to not last so that a new story/conflict begins isnât totally outrageous
I dont think i can entirely get on board with CS cynical view but to ^^^ this extent i see it
I just need for there to be a solid Happy Ending and Tros didnt deliver https://twitter.com/OutletFangirl/status/1272649572033212416">https://twitter.com/OutletFan...
I dont think i can entirely get on board with CS cynical view but to ^^^ this extent i see it
I just need for there to be a solid Happy Ending and Tros didnt deliver https://twitter.com/OutletFangirl/status/1272649572033212416">https://twitter.com/OutletFan...
Taking a pause for a bit cause ya girl has got to work irl but ill have a few thoughts on the whole redemptive death debate between CS and MC
And weâre back! Onto redemptive death https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ„ș" title="Pleading face" aria-label="Emoji: Pleading face">
Disclaimer pt 2: HIGHLY recommend actually listening to this part of the podcast. The debate ishttps://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ„" title="Feuer" aria-label="Emoji: Feuer"> MC represents us well and its so much more substantive than any twitter hot take.
It starts around minute 50
Disclaimer pt 2: HIGHLY recommend actually listening to this part of the podcast. The debate is
It starts around minute 50
So a major misconception coming out of this interview is that CS said: âthe only way Ben could have been redeemed is through death.â
Thats *not* what he said. Its an *interpretation* of what he said, summing up a 10 minute debate through a certain pov.
Thats *not* what he said. Its an *interpretation* of what he said, summing up a 10 minute debate through a certain pov.
Having an interpretation is FINE
Being angry bc of what you took from something is FINE. But to say it is literally what he said is not. Its now misconstruing something and presenting it as truth
Its misinformation
Again im gonna tell you what CS said THEN tell you what i think
Being angry bc of what you took from something is FINE. But to say it is literally what he said is not. Its now misconstruing something and presenting it as truth
Its misinformation
Again im gonna tell you what CS said THEN tell you what i think
Okay so the conversation begins with CS arguing Yoda/Obi lived to atone
MC brilliantly explained that is something separate bc they arent villains.
So then the conversation zeroes in on specifically villian redemption
** there is a more in the audio than i transcribed
MC brilliantly explained that is something separate bc they arent villains.
So then the conversation zeroes in on specifically villian redemption
** there is a more in the audio than i transcribed
Basically CS argues 3 main things
1 redemption deaths serve as a simple but solid way to end the story
2 Ben died bc he couldnt go back to the resistance and have everything be hunky dory
3 ^ is how Western stories go bc they tend to lean towards simple solid quick ends
1 redemption deaths serve as a simple but solid way to end the story
2 Ben died bc he couldnt go back to the resistance and have everything be hunky dory
3 ^ is how Western stories go bc they tend to lean towards simple solid quick ends
Now i dont see him at any point saying the ONLY way for Ben to be redeemed is through death bc he wasnt good enough etc etc
What i see is: there wasnt enough time for the resolution of Tros to get into a âHi im Zukoâ moment for Ben.
And multiple things are true at once
What i see is: there wasnt enough time for the resolution of Tros to get into a âHi im Zukoâ moment for Ben.
And multiple things are true at once
It is completely unoriginal and LAZY and in this case depressing AF to go this route. Full stop.
But CS has a point too.
Facts are Tros would have had to have a much longer resolution or an entirely different one for Ben returning to the base to make proper sense.
But CS has a point too.
Facts are Tros would have had to have a much longer resolution or an entirely different one for Ben returning to the base to make proper sense.
And this isnt to endorse antis who say ben would have been killed or put on trial. Its SW that wouldnt happen (ie Kallus)
But we also talk about this all the time. Ben couldnt waltz in, he would have to atone. There are soooo many fics just based on this premise.
But we also talk about this all the time. Ben couldnt waltz in, he would have to atone. There are soooo many fics just based on this premise.
For example:
Zuko had toph on board almost immediately (that would be Rose or Jannah) but had to work over several episodes to get Katara (Finn) and Sokka (poe) to trust him
Kallus also had to work several episodes to get the team to fully trust him when hes revealed as fulcrum
Zuko had toph on board almost immediately (that would be Rose or Jannah) but had to work over several episodes to get Katara (Finn) and Sokka (poe) to trust him
Kallus also had to work several episodes to get the team to fully trust him when hes revealed as fulcrum
To CS point there just wasnt time to properly process through all of that in the last few moments of the movie. Heâd be accepted but it would take time and attonement.
To MC point that route lacked imagination- they could have redeemed Ben earlier; or sent him to base pre Exegol
To MC point that route lacked imagination- they could have redeemed Ben earlier; or sent him to base pre Exegol
Either way- it would have been a very different movie and thats not something CS can entertain as a Disney affiliate and just as a professional
You dont play what if with something like that in a setting like this. Its rude. And we need to stop expecting to get that from LFL ppl
You dont play what if with something like that in a setting like this. Its rude. And we need to stop expecting to get that from LFL ppl
Now, ik this thread is mostly anaylsis and not my typical theory stuff.
I have a new theory coming tonight (probably) but i cant help it. ill leave a few crinkles of tin foil here that dont fit in that threadhttps://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ" title="Zwinkerndes Gesicht" aria-label="Emoji: Zwinkerndes Gesicht">
I have a new theory coming tonight (probably) but i cant help it. ill leave a few crinkles of tin foil here that dont fit in that thread
Tin foil 1
I and @twothatareone were veryhttps://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ" title="Augen" aria-label="Emoji: Augen">https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ" title="Augen" aria-label="Emoji: Augen"> at the end of the redemptive death debate when this happened. (Again give it a listen around 57/58 min)
To us it just seemed like a weirdly abrupt moment when he was never that abrupt in a conversational transition
I and @twothatareone were very
To us it just seemed like a weirdly abrupt moment when he was never that abrupt in a conversational transition
https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ" title="Augen" aria-label="Emoji: Augen"> at the end of the redemptive death debate when this happened. (Again give it a listen around 57/58 min) To us it just seemed like a weirdly abrupt moment when he was never that abrupt in a conversational transition" title="Tin foil 1I and @twothatareone were very https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ" title="Augen" aria-label="Emoji: Augen">https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/... draggable="false" alt="đ" title="Augen" aria-label="Emoji: Augen"> at the end of the redemptive death debate when this happened. (Again give it a listen around 57/58 min) To us it just seemed like a weirdly abrupt moment when he was never that abrupt in a conversational transition" class="img-responsive" style="max-width:100%;"/>
Tin foil 2: going back to all the stuff about happy endings not lasting.
If weâre right with the WBW theory, then Tros kinda works in a way. The OT skywalkersâ story is done. That war is over happy happy.
But Rey has a new mission and thats to find Ben
If weâre right with the WBW theory, then Tros kinda works in a way. The OT skywalkersâ story is done. That war is over happy happy.
But Rey has a new mission and thats to find Ben
This would restore Tatooine to its typical place of being where adventures begin (end of ROTS, ANH, ROTJ)
The ending of Tros feels happy/sad in the way Rebels does. The goal was achived but someone was lost. Then Ashoka/Sabine leave from Ezras home Lothal for new adventure https://twitter.com/OutletFangirl/status/1243025948036993026">https://twitter.com/OutletFan...
The ending of Tros feels happy/sad in the way Rebels does. The goal was achived but someone was lost. Then Ashoka/Sabine leave from Ezras home Lothal for new adventure https://twitter.com/OutletFangirl/status/1243025948036993026">https://twitter.com/OutletFan...
Okay i should clarify: Tros <<<<<<< the Rebels finale.
Im just talking in terms of structural ending
Im just talking in terms of structural ending
