Oonagh Buckley of @DeptJusticeIRL now defending the definition of 'household' including non family members in Direct Provision in the Dáil Committee on #Covid19, and says it was based on HSE advice.

600+ Direct Provision residents were moved to decrease density in Direct Provision, amongst "some controversy" says Buckley, with "much less notice than usual".

OB thanking managers and staff of DP centres as "frontline workers".

Buckley now outlining range of supports put in place to support Direct Provision centre managers.
"Around 1/4 now in own front door accommodation."

Buckley outlines continuing work on McMahon recommendations (published 2015), including right to work, and fact that 1000s of DP residents are also frontline workers.

Norma Foley FF TD addressing treatment of Skellig Star residents. 1. Did HSE fail to test in Dublin?
2. Why not tested before move?
3. Who made decision to overrule concerns of Cork-kerry hse re poor location?

Dr Kelleher of HSE answering. 1st case 12-14 days after move, so unlikely to be connected to Dublin hotel cases.
Testing only of symptomatic people at time, who were told to contact own GP. Mass testing did not take place at time.
Foley TD now disputing answers.

Foley: 1st case was 30 March apparently, but hotel management isolated case on 20th March and told @DeptJusticeIRL on 24th. Why was hse not aware till 30th?
Hse and DoJ might not care about time line, but very important to SS and Caherciveen residents.

"Up to the operator" - Foley asks who in @DeptJusticeIRL and/or @HSELive has oversight of operators?
Why did operator not arrive till 26th, leaving untrained staff with no resources?
Why no professional deep cleaning despite 25 cases?
Why cheap disinfectant used throughout?

Foley asks why @CharlieFlanagan won't allow independent investigation of SS, while HSA can inspect meat factories etc.

Buckley says no knowledge in @DeptJusticeIRL until 30 march and asks Foley to share any verifiable evidence.

Buckley: DP responsibile for DP residents. Protocol of 3 unannounced inspections annually. Difficult to achieve given number of centres now and safety of @DeptJusticeIRL staff.

OB: Staff member of @DeptJusticeIRL stayed in SS on first night. Initial few days, we didn't have the time to do usual 4-6wk prep. I speak to the Minister every day about the SS. We are happy it is good quality now.

Pa Daly TD up now, questions OB statement that SS staff had to learn new skills. Had any been garda vetted, been on Tusla course, or worked in DP before?
OB: all staff have now been on Tusla course. Manager quit early, new manager ran DP centre for many years.

OB:All staff now garda vetted as of Monday. It was unacceptable at the time but now...
Some had been garda vetted but not for that location.

Daly asks about privacy, dignity and safety in standards. In SS, no own door accommodation, no kettles, shared rooms, shared spaces, including dining, no social distancing.
OB: standards come into force next year and we are quite far from them.

OB: SS similar to standards in other DP centres around the country.
Daly: what about avoiding isolated locations, child appropriate spaces, etc? Any of these taken into account in September.
OB: framework for procurement has min standards, "but we have to go with what is offered"

OB: inspected against procurement standards, which would have allowed 160+, and we never put that many there
Daly: you're using 1966 housing standard?
OB: yes but we took voluntary decision to reduce to 3 people regardless of room size. 2 if strangers. Doesn't apply to families.

Daky: what about other offer?
OB: we'd prefer to rent it with HAP and put 1000 people who already have permission to remain in there, and stop using emergency accommodation for IP applicants.

OB signed contract with SS 16 March, moved residents on 18 March. Needed exclusive properties where other travellers would not be staying.

How many centres now, and how many before?
OB: 84 locations Inc 47 DP centres, 33 emergency accommodation, 4 self isolating and 5 for density reduction

Jennifer Carroll McNeill TD questioning now.

JCM asks is 175 total number of cases linked to outbreaks in DP centres. What's number?
Kelleher : cannot tell you because if the way the information comes to us (HSE). 175 is only what we know.
JCM: this is troubling.

JCM: 13 hospitalised, no deaths, correct?
Kelleher : yes. Both residents and staff of DP included in outbreak figures.
JCM on IRC research : 83% said they didn't have enough info.

JCM asks for more info on communication to DP residents. OB says this was one of biggest challenges. New team assembled. Rang DP centre managers every day. Began newsletter 2-3 times a day for managers, then for residents.

OB acknowledges language is an issue. Asked centre managers to set up WhatsApp broadcasts for all residents to communicate info.

OB : one of lessons learned is that healthcare via GPs worked OK Pre pandemic except re mental health, it probably isn't enough at this time. I've written to hse asking them to review supports given to vulnerable populations including DP. I haven't yet received a reply.

HSE Siobhán Mcardle : robust and integrated engagement between HSE and IPAS. Every resident receives all info to support health outcomes at practical level.

JCM what steps are @DeptJusticeIRL taking to address international protection applications during pandemic if lull in applications? OB: we never stopped asylum applications but we did have to restrict access to buildings. Lot of IP system in DOJ is paper based, which is slow.

OB: hoping to move to more positive decisions shortly.
Joe O'Brien of Green party now asks HSE Mcardle about engagements around access to health services at Skellig Star. SM says social inclusion team engaged. No inspection, only advice. Inspection not normal or usual practice

JOB : should it not have been good practice?
Can you confirm number in DP now tested?
SM: no we do not have figures.
Kelleher : 1734 tested in my figures, in our direct number 959. 350 cases. Positivity rate 6-8 percent.
JOB everyone should be tested.

JOB: why did @DeptJusticeIRL not follow HSPC advice on social distancing?
OB: that doesn't mean single room occupancy. I haven't seen any doc mandating that.
Job: it doesn't mandate, it's a HSPC recommendation. Why not followed?

Job: How many new 'households' created?
OB: we tried to move people already sharing
Job: all?
Ob: no. I'll get you those figures.

Duncan Smith Labour TD: fears of 2nd wave. Have you considered fast track approach for citizenship to access HAP, welfare, jobs, etc, and not face another winter.
OB: permission to remain? 1000 already have it, but still in DP. We've been asked to look at undocumented workers.

OB: We have not been asked to fast track or change criteria.
DS: would you make recommendation to do either?
OB: I could prepare such a proposal, but caretaker Govt would have difficulty doing that. We could adjust individual considerations if asked by a new government to do so.

Kelleher changes answer to 2700 tests. Several places with no positive cases.

DS: no recurrent testing?
Kelleher: V few cases. No need at present.
Catherine Murphy Social Dems up now.
When did HSE know there was covid case in swords hotel?
Kelleher: travelodge. Earlier that month.
Cm: why not communicated to @DeptJusticeIRL
Kelleher : only dealt with group

CM: what about group moved into travelodge swords after group moved out to Caherciveen?
OB: once not accommodating other customers, we used it for new arrivals. Once Travelodge stated business again, we moved them out

CM: did you know about covid+ staff in travelodge?
Ob: we only found out from your letter, then contacted management of travelodge.

Cm: what's chain of command in notifying between HSE and DoJ? In opening and moving people. Where hse aware of case, DOJ not told.
MW: decision to move by IPAS. We move as we have to. Large no of new arrivals, so we need movement.
CM: who in hse responsible for notifying DoJ?

Mark Wilson: environment changing, now new system.

Cm: still not clear what is line of communication. Can you provide in writing?
Brid Smith PBP up now. Points to @masi_asylum submission.

BS: evidence shocking. Hse advice on households is difficult because of overcrowding and don't speak same language, don't get to know each other.
Do witnesses agree with hse advice?
OB: not our place to disagree. Guidelines take account of difficult with social distancing.

OB: Ireland not unique. EU guidance similar.
BS: its a problem if its your job to care for them, but not question advice.
Raises issue of dining and washing facilities in range of DP centres.

BS: letter to Skellig Star blaming residents when SS does not allow distancing. Please comment.
Hse mcardle: letter wasn't to apportion blame, only reminded to adhere to guidance. Supported by hse worker on site 7 days a week to interpret public health advice and support staff.

BS counters that residents blamed for lockdown extended by 14 days. Covid has exposed horrors of DP. Who is author of that letter?
Kelleher : outbreak control team Committee. You could say it was to residents or management with advice.
BS says it says to all residents.

BS: all residents should be moved out of inhuman position.
Next up Matt Shanahan Ind TD.
To @DeptJusticeIRL/OB:
What training have you undertaken in infection control?
Any future review of time for applications? 67% refusal rate last year.
HSE: is isolation being observed?

MS: is there rota system in place in all DP shared space?
People of Africa Descent may be more susceptible to extreme covid effects, any consideration to this by DoJ, given number in IP system?

OB outlines infection control training and checklist and dissemination across centres. Mainly managers are hotel or accommodation experienced, never had to do this before. We had to tell them what they needed to know.

Mick Kirrane: trying to go from 15 months to 9 on decisions, can't carry out f2f interviews now because of Covid. Will try via video conf. Catherine Day group, 1 of terms of ref is speeding up processing cases. To report autumn.

OB on offsite isolation rooms, arranged with CHO4 areas. Temp solution onsite awaiting test result, then taken off site.

OB re PAD : we have cocooned anyone advised by hse. Not advised re PAD but we would do if asked.

Now Michael Collins Ind TD, on horrors of DP system before covid, now shows up ordeals with forced movement, confinement, long isolation periods in small rooms. Was there a testing strategy before people were moved?
Kelleher : no testing strategy. Moved by DoJ.

Kelleher :We tested if case emerged.
MC: Why not? Will there be?
Kelleher : tests are not the answer.

Kelleher: We have advice, put specialist staff in, we seek to work with DoJ staff to reduce burden of Covid. But difficult because of circumstances. It's same as we ask everyone.
OB: DoJ would have issue if hse required testing of asylum seekers ahead of other groups in society.

OB: starting to look now at next steps. Difficulty because hotels returning to commercial. Will have restricted options. Trying to improve accommodation. Waiting for Catherine Day group recommendations in Sept.

Thomas Pringle TD: have all healthcare workers living in DP now been moved out?
What feedback from Jesuit Refugee support line? You won't accept complaints from anyone except residents so what's purpose of that?
Why no blanket testing in. DP now rolled out to nursing homes?

OB: We identified 160 HCWs from our labour market access records and contacted them. Few takeups of offers. Family still in DP, or happy in DP, or accommodation from employer or HSE not of their choice. We will not evict them from DP or demand they gave up job. Can only recommend

OB 11 calls on JRS line. Firewall between us and IP decisions.
TP: applicants don't believe that.
I've raised issues that your officials won't touch. OB: sorry to hear that, prefer to hear first from residents.

Kelleher: mass testing not the way to go. 10 centres had no cases. More around evident cases.
Reduced time for test results.
TP: would same apply to nursing home? So guidance in congregated settings doesn't apply to DP??

Stephen Donnelly: Level of over 65s?
OB: only 70 in that category. Solutions in place for all, not necessarily having own space. Eg two friends stayed together. And others part of family groups. HSE OK with all those solutions.

SD: shared space solutions?
OB: eg delivered meals, rosters, depends on capacity of centre
Sd: are they using same facilities at different times? OB: yes if reasonable hygiene control. In some cases, closed shared kitchens and gone back to direct provision of meals. Backward step

SD: masks in congregated settings? OB: no shortage of masks.
SD: can anyone have one?
OB: concern they might inappropriately use.
SD: DP particular situation. Hope you would look at providing masks to residents.

SD: children in DP in situations which will scar them. They can't go to school. Are there supports for school work and other psychological supports?
MW (DOJ): Responsibility lies with schools. Some thinking around leaving cert students and transitions from primary level...

... and new arrivals not yet in school. Looked at library drops. All centres have WiFi and TVs.
SD: do they have laptops?
MW: not high level but we can provide.
SD: look at school children and provision of laptops.

Sinn Féin Matt Carthy : it's an abhorrent system that serves neither those seeking international protection not those in local communities where they are based. How many in 84 centres?
OB: just under 8000, but 10% have sourced own accommodation at this time
MC: how much paid?

OB: I'll have to come back with exact figs. Ahead of spending estimate. Overspending.
MC: 180 positive cases?
Kelleher: from outbreaks. Also more from non DP centres.
MC: can we get figs for all 84 centres? How many deep cleans?
OB: deep clean not part of advice.
MC: none then!

MC: risk assessment?
Ob: no risk assessment. But we knew we had risks and we tried to address. Gave protocol to operators.
Mark Wilson: gave info on routines for cleaning , Isolation, then contingency planning.

MC: is risk assessment by centre managers or independent?
MW: collated from info from managers and other info.
MC: is there assessment re covid carried out?
Mw: we haven't moved people of late.
MC: Caherciveen, was there risk assessment?
Mw: not asked of us.

MC: tested people moved from caherciveen to Cork?
Kelleher: only moved if positive.
MC: current transfers?
Ob: now only transfers back post isolation or to another centre. Plus new arrivals, quarantined then moved on. We have to keep the system moving

MC: testing practice?
OB: no required testing unless medical. DoJ will not random test asylum seekers ahead of general population.
MC: but if moved, not random. And Asylum seekers are different by virtue of being in DP.

Mc: How many non family sharing toilet facilities?
OB: everyone not in own door is sharing toilet or dining.
MC: problem
OB: trying to improve. Made difficult by covid.

MC: moving from private contractors?
Ob: yes. Interrupted by chair to say answer should be provided in writing due to time.
Colm Burke TD: How many under judicial review now in IP process?
Those with medical problems attending hospital regularly?

Sorry folks, I'll have to pause and tweet from the recording later. Thanks for following. You can watch live at http://Oireachtas.ie/oireachtas-tv/dail-eireann-live
Interesting stuff now on pregnant women in Caherciveen and elsewhere.