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I feel a ๐น๐ถ๐๐๐น๐ฒ bad about that anti-Falco post.
So, everyone says, Fox should just Shine out of Falco's Down-Throw, but..
๐๐๐ก๐๐ค ๐๐๐จ ๐ง๐๐๐ก ๐๐ค๐ข๐๐ค๐จ ๐ค๐๐ ๐ค๐ ๐ฟ๐ค๐ฌ๐ฃ-๐๐๐ง๐ค๐ฌ (on Fox). This thread will explain what he can do and how it works.
(1/20)
So, everyone says, Fox should just Shine out of Falco's Down-Throw, but..
๐๐๐ก๐๐ค ๐๐๐จ ๐ง๐๐๐ก ๐๐ค๐ข๐๐ค๐จ ๐ค๐๐ ๐ค๐ ๐ฟ๐ค๐ฌ๐ฃ-๐๐๐ง๐ค๐ฌ (on Fox). This thread will explain what he can do and how it works.
(1/20)
The effectiveness of Falco's Dthrow vs Fox is ๐๐ฒ๐ฟ๐ port-dependent, but he still gets combos with either Port 1 or Port 4.
From 1-13%, both yield Shine, but afterward, Fox enters DAMAGEAIR3 (state) upon being thrown and is launched if Falco is P1, but land-cancels if P4
2/20
From 1-13%, both yield Shine, but afterward, Fox enters DAMAGEAIR3 (state) upon being thrown and is launched if Falco is P1, but land-cancels if P4
2/20
14% gives enough KB to cause D-AIR3 instead of D-AIR2 and at that point:
When P1 Falco Dthrows Fox, on frame 1 of hitlag, Fox is held below ground, then on f2, is placed at ground level before being launched.
P4 Falco keeps Fox below ground and then he lands upon release.
3/20
When P1 Falco Dthrows Fox, on frame 1 of hitlag, Fox is held below ground, then on f2, is placed at ground level before being launched.
P4 Falco keeps Fox below ground and then he lands upon release.
3/20
When Fox land-cancels the hitstun, he is +1 and can technically Shine Falco, but Fox should probably choose to Shield or Dash Away (optimal DI).
When Fox is launched (Pre-14%/P1 Falco), optimal DI is ยฑ.725, -.6875, but it's only marginally better than surrounding values.
4/20
When Fox is launched (Pre-14%/P1 Falco), optimal DI is ยฑ.725, -.6875, but it's only marginally better than surrounding values.
4/20
Because of this, I tested for ยฑ.725, -.675 (Shield Drop) since it's a value that's very close to things most players will have.
It's important to note that Fox should hold C-stick down (ASDI) because he'll land 1 frame earlier and prevent Grab from being a true followup.
(5/20)
It's important to note that Fox should hold C-stick down (ASDI) because he'll land 1 frame earlier and prevent Grab from being a true followup.
(5/20)
If Fox doesn't do the proper ASDI, Falco gets 1 extra frame of advantage (Grab & Dash JC Shine are often unavoidable)
Fox usually wants to land ASAP (optimal DI) because Falco can often land the same punish regardlessโdespite that Fox may sometimes want full DI away.
(6/20)
Fox usually wants to land ASAP (optimal DI) because Falco can often land the same punish regardlessโdespite that Fox may sometimes want full DI away.
(6/20)
Frame Advantage
๐ฃ๐ผ๐ฟ๐ ๐ญ ๐๐ฎ๐น๐ฐ๐ผ
0-13%: +6
14-49%: +5
50-126%: +6
127%: +7
128%: +8
129%: Tumble (Full away, wary of Ftilt)
๐ฃ๐ผ๐ฟ๐ ๐ฐ ๐๐ฎ๐น๐ฐ๐ผ
0-13%: +6 (optimal DI)
14-98%: -1 (Fox should hold full DI Away)
99-128%: -1 (Fox should hold Down-Away)
129+%: Tumble
7/20
๐ฃ๐ผ๐ฟ๐ ๐ญ ๐๐ฎ๐น๐ฐ๐ผ
0-13%: +6
14-49%: +5
50-126%: +6
127%: +7
128%: +8
129%: Tumble (Full away, wary of Ftilt)
๐ฃ๐ผ๐ฟ๐ ๐ฐ ๐๐ฎ๐น๐ฐ๐ผ
0-13%: +6 (optimal DI)
14-98%: -1 (Fox should hold full DI Away)
99-128%: -1 (Fox should hold Down-Away)
129+%: Tumble
7/20
๐ฃ๐ญ Falco Flowchart
0-13%: Shine
14-49%: Pivot Shine/JC Shine Pressure, Grab mix
50-65%: Pivot Shine/JC Shine, Dsmash, Ftilt, Grab mix
66-97%: โ, but Dash JC Grab (timing mix)
98-107%: Dsmash, Ftilt, Dash JC Grab mix
108-128%: Ftilt
129-141%: Ftilt, Jab
142-200%: Jab
(8/20)
0-13%: Shine
14-49%: Pivot Shine/JC Shine Pressure, Grab mix
50-65%: Pivot Shine/JC Shine, Dsmash, Ftilt, Grab mix
66-97%: โ, but Dash JC Grab (timing mix)
98-107%: Dsmash, Ftilt, Dash JC Grab mix
108-128%: Ftilt
129-141%: Ftilt, Jab
142-200%: Jab
(8/20)
๐ฃ๐ญ Falco Flowchart Notes pt.1
- Dash JC Shine is never true because it takes 7f, but if Falco can't Pivot Shine, he can use the resulting pressure from Pivot/JC Shine.
- 14-39%: Fox must FP Shine to break standing Grab
- 40+%: Can buffer Dashback^
- 50+%: Optimal DI+Turn^
9/20
- Dash JC Shine is never true because it takes 7f, but if Falco can't Pivot Shine, he can use the resulting pressure from Pivot/JC Shine.
- 14-39%: Fox must FP Shine to break standing Grab
- 40+%: Can buffer Dashback^
- 50+%: Optimal DI+Turn^
9/20
๐ฃ๐ญ Falco Flowchart Notes pt.2
- 0-3% (P1&P4): DI+SDI Away gets grabbed
- 56-65%: FP Shine doesn't hit Falco, but avoids the Grab
- 66-111%: Dash JC Grab will always catch DI away, but optimal DI -> Shine/Spotdodge will beat the Grab.
117
- 112-128%: Can buffer Dashback^
10/20
- 0-3% (P1&P4): DI+SDI Away gets grabbed
- 56-65%: FP Shine doesn't hit Falco, but avoids the Grab
- 66-111%: Dash JC Grab will always catch DI away, but optimal DI -> Shine/Spotdodge will beat the Grab.
117
- 112-128%: Can buffer Dashback^
10/20
๐ฃ๐ญ Falco Flowchart Notes pt.3
- 66-116%: Can Shine too early and be grabbed afterward
๐ฃ๐ฐ Falco Flowchart (Fox DI listed)
0-13%: Shine (Optimal)
14-128%: ๐ก๐๐๐๐ง๐๐ฉ๐ (-๐ญ) mix with Shine, Grab, Jab, Dsmash (14-98%: Away, 99%: Down-Away)
129-200%: Jab/Ftilt (Away)
11/20
- 66-116%: Can Shine too early and be grabbed afterward
๐ฃ๐ฐ Falco Flowchart (Fox DI listed)
0-13%: Shine (Optimal)
14-128%: ๐ก๐๐๐๐ง๐๐ฉ๐ (-๐ญ) mix with Shine, Grab, Jab, Dsmash (14-98%: Away, 99%: Down-Away)
129-200%: Jab/Ftilt (Away)
11/20
Now, you may be wondering about SDI.
There is a ๐ฏ frame window to SDI the launcher of Falco's Dthrow. DI+1 SDI input away tends to avoid Falco's standing attacks (ex. Shine), but Dash JC Grab still catches DI away.
There ๐ถ๐ one true method of escape, explained below.
12/20
There is a ๐ฏ frame window to SDI the launcher of Falco's Dthrow. DI+1 SDI input away tends to avoid Falco's standing attacks (ex. Shine), but Dash JC Grab still catches DI away.
There ๐ถ๐ one true method of escape, explained below.
12/20
Basically mimicking the interactions from P4 Dthrow:
If Fox can use a combination of SDI and ASDI to get deep enough in the floor that he overpowers the height of his own ECB offset (f2 of KB) & first frame of knockback, he will land-cancel (+1)!
So, how can we do that?
13/20
If Fox can use a combination of SDI and ASDI to get deep enough in the floor that he overpowers the height of his own ECB offset (f2 of KB) & first frame of knockback, he will land-cancel (+1)!
So, how can we do that?
13/20
When P1 Falco is throwing Fox, even though he's placed at ground level, his ECB is based on his actionstate (DAMAGEAIR[2/3] before KD) and thus has some amount of offset.
This is brief, but a bit technicalโthis video might help:
Feel free to skim!
14/20
![When P1 Falco is throwing Fox, even though he's placed at ground level, his ECB is based on his actionstate (DAMAGEAIR[2/3] before KD) and thus has some amount of offset.This is brief, but a bit technicalโthis video might help: Feel free to skim!14/20](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV77uekWsAYnQUM.jpg "When P1 Falco is throwing Fox, even though he's placed at ground level, his ECB is based on his actionstate (DAMAGEAIR[2/3] before KD) and thus has some amount of offset.This is brief, but a bit technicalโthis video might help: Feel free to skim!14/20")
This is brief, but a bit technicalโthis video might help:
Feel free to skim!
14/20
As long as Fox performs a downward SDI input that would ๐ป๐ผ๐ move him further than the value of his offset, he will be able to move further into the ground.
D-AIR2: 4.580
D-AIR3: 5.279
Fox ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ป๐ป๐ผ๐ do a full SDI input downwards because it would move him ๐ฒ units.
15/20
D-AIR2: 4.580
D-AIR3: 5.279
Fox ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐ป๐ป๐ผ๐ do a full SDI input downwards because it would move him ๐ฒ units.
15/20
If Fox reacts to Dthrow and immediately holds the stick to left or right (this can be done Away or In), he can flick into the down-left or down-right notchesโSDI'ing ~.7 (y-axis), resulting in a positional shift of 4.2, just below the D-AIR2 threshold.
Now he needs ASDI!
16/20
Now he needs ASDI!
16/20
ASDI occurs as hitlag ends so it is unrestricted.
ASDI is also half as effective as SDI, so, if fox SDI's downward at ~45ยฐ (shield drop notch) while holding straight down on the C-stick, he will shift down 7.2 units (4.2+3)โvery easily overpowering his own ECB & f1 of KB.
17/20
ASDI is also half as effective as SDI, so, if fox SDI's downward at ~45ยฐ (shield drop notch) while holding straight down on the C-stick, he will shift down 7.2 units (4.2+3)โvery easily overpowering his own ECB & f1 of KB.
17/20
Fox is unable to perform this SDI until he is placed at ground level (after the first frame of hitlag). This means that there is only a 2f window to SDI and land-cancel, but you can do it.
Execution:
1. Hold In/Out + C-stick Down during Dthrow
2. Flick to ~45ยฐ notch (SDI)
18/20
Execution:
1. Hold In/Out + C-stick Down during Dthrow
2. Flick to ~45ยฐ notch (SDI)
18/20
Wuaw. That's it! Thank you for reading and I hope we start seeing a new mixup and shift in the Falco-Fox matchup (also FIGHT for Port 1).
I'd normally reserve this sort of content for my subs/patreon, so, if you want to support me in any way, check out my stream & YouTube ^^.
I'd normally reserve this sort of content for my subs/patreon, so, if you want to support me in any way, check out my stream & YouTube ^^.
We also tested a lot of this information on my stream ( http://Twitch.tv/ShyPF )
It's a pretty relaxed stream where we listen to nice music, test stuff, and talk about the game. If that interests you, please check it out!
There's also some *sick* emotes & info for subs!
Thanks!
It's a pretty relaxed stream where we listen to nice music, test stuff, and talk about the game. If that interests you, please check it out!
There's also some *sick* emotes & info for subs!
Thanks!
Extra note, at the end:
- After 129%, Fox can avoid getting jab/ftilt followup'd by doing that SDI+ASDI combo and immediately forcing a tech situation.
- Again, pre-14% yields Shine for both ports ๐ฎ๐ป๐ฑ Fox can do the proper SDI+ASDI to land-cancel out of it.
- After 129%, Fox can avoid getting jab/ftilt followup'd by doing that SDI+ASDI combo and immediately forcing a tech situation.
- Again, pre-14% yields Shine for both ports ๐ฎ๐ป๐ฑ Fox can do the proper SDI+ASDI to land-cancel out of it.
Does this thread ever end?
I might try going back to Blogger, but (it's awful and) Twitter seems to garner a lot of reception.
This became a longer project than I had hoped (a lot longer actually..), so it's quite unwieldy as a thread of tweets. We'll see what happens.
I might try going back to Blogger, but (it's awful and) Twitter seems to garner a lot of reception.
This became a longer project than I had hoped (a lot longer actually..), so it's quite unwieldy as a thread of tweets. We'll see what happens.
Related Reddit Thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/g4g82z/solving_falcos_downthrow_vs_fox_flowchart_included/
Feel free to vote it what you wish
Feel free to vote it what you wish
