I’ve been thinking about this concept with regards to #TheRiseOfSkywalker and why certain choices were made (very sloppily and likely VERY last minute). Specifically, Ben’s abrupt death that lacked: any emotional weight, a John williams tribute, and a reaction from Rey. Thread https://twitter.com/thereylovoid/status/1209678210579009536

An abundance of clues have added up to the fact that Ben Solo was not meant to die. This makes the most sense with the story at hand: he’s the last Skywalker, has the most to atone for, is responsible for his damage to family legacy and that of his father. And he loves Rey.

Other reasons abound, not least of which, the fact that Luke had a hand in his trauma, and Leia and Han directly sacrificed themselves in the hope of their son returning. Not just in ancillary materials, but in TROS it’s explicitely stated he was manipulated and abused by Sheev.

TROS explicitely brings back Han in order to help Ben (and the audience) come to terms of forgiveness for his original sin of Patricide. It may be the movie’s best scene. Over 2 movies, Rey and Ben swap with who saves who from the dark. They love and are connected to each other.

More BG: Ben is integral to Rey’s acceptance of her past in TLJ, her hope in the future, and has been the only person in her life to truly make her feel Seen and not alone. They both see a future with each other and know that’s the goal, but they’re different.

Ultimately, Ben messes up because he is convinced he must let the past die, rather than learning from failure. He is afraid to go home because he doesn’t think he CAN. In TROS he even says out loud that he can’t go back to Leia because he’s ashamed he’s a monster.

Meanwhile, Rey learned from Ben that she must confront her flaws and past rather than running from them, and she heads the other two messages of TLJ: learning from failure and saving what you love, while ben doesn’t.

It takes Han’s return, and Leia’s death, and Rey literally and figuratively KILLING Kylo Ren and re-healing him as Ben with the confession that SHE believed in him and loved him enough to support him on his journey home, to make himself believe in Hope for himself and the future.

As soon as he throws his lightsaber away he’s Ben Solo completely. He’s resolved to save Rey from dark and be there for her so she’ll never be alone, along with starting over in general and start making a change. This, is a turning point in a redemption arc. It’s the MIDDLE.

It also conveniently happens at the middle of the movie. Now, the rest of the plotting in this movie is so clunky for inexplicable reasons that I’m going to call varying degrees of fan service. Kylo was TFA Kylo for the first 40 min and Ben doesn’t show up again until Exegol.

Despite the messy plotting, the story elements have all been so explicitely laid out, over the course of three movies and THIS MOVIE, for Ben solo to give everything and live, and be there for Rey, but not without his atonement.

The evidence isn’t just in the movies/canon stories themselves. For the external evidence of Ben living, here’s a much more comprehensive thread about the bizzzare editing, cast reactions and interviews, and overall production mess. https://twitter.com/mariennemaid/status/1208959313634398209?s=21

Additionally, Daisy mentioned at multiple points about “are apologies enough?” And “do actions matter more than words?” Why would actions matter at all if he was going to die anyway? We’ve heard about all these emotional scenes with Adam that were cut from the movie

It’s easy to assume all these extra scenes were cut (likely including the end scene on tattoine) after the decision was made to kill Ben. And why was this done? Why butcher his entire character arc, the satisfying and hopeful conclusion of Ep IX, and REY’S END?

back to this Western idea of redemption-by-death. Given all this story material, all these arrows in the direction of Ben Solo Living to be a better person and atone, the response from a significant amount of #lucasfilm employees, and a lot of fans I’ve talked to is he should die

The 3 characters beloved by the fans TROS was catered to, Luke, Han, and Leia, all sacrificed to bring Ben home. Rey (the main protagonist) is in love with him. He is in love with Her. He has been abused and misguided and is on the path to fix the mess he’s left the galaxy in

I think part of this reaction for the GA is that the sequel trilogy has framed Kylo and Rey in the vein of Vader and Luke (even though they are inherently DIFFERENT characters with different stories) and are expecting this ending as the Right Thing considering “he killed Han.”

But it’s not just Star Wars, it’s the way western movies have treated their sympathetic villains and how viewers have conflated sympathetic villains to actual redemptive characters. Killmonger was a great sympathetic villain, but he showed no indication of learning, of change.

Walter White, anti-hero of the decade, had the opposite arc of redemption, but has been sympathetic due to our following his journey. It’s expected he will die because by that point he is beyond sympathy and beyond redemption. He’s a sympathetic villain who’s dies.

In the game of thrones show, Sandor Clegane, another sympathetic “villain” was given a diet-redemptive arc through Arya and ends up dying “epically” (according to some fans) in the service of fan service, while in the book he’s living in peace after a life of war

In addition to a Western expectation overcoming fantasy metaphors and mythology, there’s another aspect of the people who say he “deserves to die.” I’m talking here about some “woke” fans that can’t differentiate b/w villainous acts in fiction and villainous acts in reality

Woke is in quotes because you can be woke and hate people who do villainous acts in real life and also be a fan of and understand the morals and themes being conveyed through bettering yourself from a villainous character in fiction. Can’t believe I’m spelling this out.

There is an inherent fallacy in thinking any villain who has done bad things in fiction does not deserve to live or a second chance because you wouldn’t give them that chance in real life. Kids don’t look at Kylo Ren and think “I can kill people and live!” Only adults think that

Kids see the lesson in doing good, in getting a second chance and believing in making the world better. They see the value in saving what you love. But so many adults still don’t. We’ve been conditioned by our media to believe in death. Lucasfilm employees and writers included

Its inherently depressing that a villainous character has to do so many things to be “redeemed” only to deserve death. What’s the point then? He needed Han’s forgiveness, and Leia’s sacrifice, JUST TO DIE? If nothing is good enough, if he deserves death anyway, what’s the point?

#TheRiseOfSykwalker writers decided to kill Ben last minute because in keeping with the vibe of the rest of their pandering movie, they got cold feet, decided in the end to play everything safe. Safe in this instance is giving people the Western character death they are expecting

The amazing thing about this is that it was done at the expense of the ending of the entire Star Wars saga, at the expense of the core themes of Star Wars, and the expense of Rey’s entire character arc and happiness (that wasn’t already butchered by her legacy plot).

This expectation is so pervasive that last minute death of Ben Solo was seen as a good decision by writers even as it destroyed the themes and characters in the trilogy. Even as it was done so poorly Rey didn’t get a chance to mourn her soul mate as she’s left ALONE AGAIN

Rey’s ending is abominable. She starts with crippling loneliness, longing for love/belonging, and denying her family past on a desert planet and ends left alone, heartbroken after Ben dies and also denying her family past. And it is presented as triumphant when it is devastating.

Ben Solo dies without fulfilling his full redemption, his full responsibility to the galaxy. He doesn’t get to make amends for his past wrongs, he gets to die even after our hero’s sacrificed for him. Kids get to see that saving what you love doesn’t matter.

There is no follow up on the rest of the galaxy in this movie because that should’ve been led by the former supreme leader, fixing his mistakes. Ending slavery like anakin wanted, and balancing the force with Rey. It’s all cut because “Villains don’t deserve redemption”

The saddest thing is that to a good portion of the general audience, they won’t see this as a problem. They will see him as Vader who should deserve to die, or a murderer who deserves to die, or a Marvel villain who deserves to die. “Don’t think to much, turn off your brain”

Side note: Vader never had a redemption arc. Vader decided to save his son at the last minute. That is NOT The same thing. He was straight up bad from beginning until he tossed Sheev over the bridge. We call this “redemption” but it’s not. Not even close.

Anakin killed younglings, the Jedi, tortures his daughter, almost kills his son multiple times, cuts off his hand, kills Obi-wan, commits countless crimes in his years as a feared and hated Sith, and is the ACTUAL Jedi killer.

Being brought back to the light is not “redeemed.” He did not atone for his sins and make amends. We know that Kylo didn’t actually kill any Jedi. And has been on an actual redemption arc the whole ST. He doesn’t even get a force ghost at the end, another slap in the face

The conflation with Vader mentioned before is another reason why some fans don’t see a problem with him dying. This is not the same character. Ben is what Anakin/Vader couldn’t do. He is meant to save the one he loves from dying, balance the force with her, and fix the galaxy.

He is almost best for beat Prince Zuko. He almost comes back in Chapter 2, turns back to the dark, and middle of chapter 3 realizes he can be better. Almost dies to save Katara and then helps Aang create a new era of peace. Instead, Ben solo Dies, to the detriment of 9 films.

It seems obvious considering their pattern, but it’s still astonishing, that in the vain of keeping everything safe, they destroyed their story due to a fallacy among our culture’s way of consuming fantasy. Even among @Disney and #Lucasfilm, companies famous for myths and HEA.

This thread is WAY too long but I hope I’ve made my point. #TheRiseOfSkywalker felt devastating to me, like there was no hope, no lesson learned, and no future. I’m crushed as a lifelong Star Wars fan, and someone who loved these characters. JJ, CT, @Disney #Lucasfilm, why?